John 

with the greatest respect ...everything I wrote was oriented towards 
**working through the problem**, rather than continuing down the 
path of saying, in effect, "ain't it awful" and/or "it's sooooo 
complicated" and/or blaming teaching staff/ publishers/ academia 
generally. 

So what **is** the problem?

If the instructions are, as you say, "unclear, often contradictory, 
incomplete etc" ...
then ...
perhaps you need to consider ways to get the staff concerned to 
make their instructions clear, consistent, complete (by policy 
and/or staff training, of various kinds). It certainly seems to be 
unwise to allow staff to continue to give unclear, contradictory, 
incomplete instructions, and continue to deal with the 
consequences in terms of distressed students. No?

BUT...
IF, repeat IF, the instructions they are given **are** clear, 
consistent, etc, then maybe, just maybe, yes you should tell 
students to go away and ...
- READ the instructions,
- ASK their teachers,
- THINK about it, 
etc .... 
They are adults, after all, studying in **higher** education, and 
**should** be able to grasp what is basically a simple practice with 
a little bit of effort. Surely the aim of student support is to promote 
the students' development, not encourage dependence? No?

If the students are visibly **distressed**, and the instructions are 
clear etc, then surely there is likely to be some more fundamental 
reason for the distress - sounds like counselling is needed. 
Otherwise, the distressed students will continue to be distressed. 
No?

Just because students don't perform as well as they should, it 
doesn't mean that teaching staff have failed. And just because they 
complain, it doesn't mean that those complaints are warranted. 
Sometimes, nay, often, students just don't 'hear' what they are told 
- well I guess that applies to us all. And they/ we then act under a 
misapprehension, and find that things don't turn out as well as 
expected. That doesn't mean anybody else is to 'blame'. But the 
mature response surely is to take steps to deal with the matter, so 
things are different next time (mmm, sound like learning?). No?

I don't think we live in different universes. Mine is one in which 
problems are, for the most part, capable of resolution if we put our 
minds and energies to them. That is yours too? No?

So, again, what **is** the problem that needs fixing? Can we agree 
on what it is? Can we think of practical action to resolve it? If so, 
what's stopping us?

regards


Len



On 6 Feb 2006, at 17:32, John Hilsdon wrote:

> Oh dear ...
> 
> I must be living in a very different universe to Len. In my world -
> and that of my colleagues here (so I don't think it's entirely
> imaginary!) major, unnecessary problems arise for students around
> referencing and get in the way of their engaging with their subjects.
> It is a huge problem here!! Is it just Plymouth? Should I just tell
> all these confused, mystified, distressed - and sometimes angry -
> students who call us, email us and book tutorials with us because they
> want to understand referencing, to grow up, pull themselves together
> and go away and work out how to make sense of the (I repeat: unclear,
> often contradictory, incomplete etc) information they are given about
> referencing on some of their courses? I think not!  
> 
> ... but that's more than enough from me on this subject ... 
> 
> 
> John
> 
>
Dr Leonard Holmes
Principal Lecturer in Human Resource Management
Luton Business School, Putteridge Bury Campus,
Hitchin Road, Luton LU2 8LE
tel. 01582 743111 ext 5014
email [log in to unmask]
websites: http://www.re-skill.org.uk
          http://www.odysseygroup.org.uk

email: [log in to unmask]

websites: www.re-skill.org.uk
          www.odysseygroup.org.uk