Thanks Maggie and John
The issue is obviously exacerbated by the fact that we all have such
different roles and titles etc, and this may affect our primary
resposnibility (as it is seen by others)- i.e. to educate students or
staff? I have a similar difficulty trying to define what 'reflection' or
'learning' is, as it can be different things to different people at
different times - but in order to use it I really need to do is focus on
what it can do - which helps move things on. So maybe we can also ask
what are we trying to achieve rather than what we are trying to be.
If we focus on something like 'changing teaching practices', it is
obviously a major undertaking so maybe we can start by learning from the
past and ask how are/when are teaching practices actually changed?
In this respect it seems that we can also be thinking about what a
lecturer's questions might be, to inform our approaches, e.g. how much
extra work will this new approach mean for me? Why should I redesign all
my teaching? Why should I be doing this when we have a funded support
centre to do it? I'm sure we've all heard more!
My colleague, Christine Keenan, advocates working with any lecturing
staff who approach us and get them inolved in working with us in the
ways described below, and on funded projects together if possible. If
they then talk to colleagues and get them interested the ideas seem to
disseminate more effectively than us 'banging the drum' all the time.
As we know, getting involved with any teaching and learning events
(conferences, PGCE's, symposiums etc) is obviously a 'must' for
engaging with lecturing staff as this is where the conversations will be
happening anyway (hopefully). Maybe there other places where these
conversations are happening - can we find them and become part of them?
But is it also a case of ensuring that we are seen and listened to as
'academics' - can we discuss education issues as 'academics', are we
credible? If not what are we lacking or seen to lack?
I may be going down inappropriate paths here but you did ask for more
questions! ;)
Lynne
-----Original Message-----
From: learning development in higher education network
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Maggie Boyle
Sent: 08 May 2006 14:08
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: just google it! NO, scholar.google it???
Hi All
Thanks to Len, Lynn and John for their considered postings. I was very
worried last thing on Friday afternoon that I had created an 'us and
them' situation. The 'we' of John - those of us that engage with the
development of the individual and the 'them' who teach the subject
discipline that don't yet seem to use the kind of methods we are talking
about. Was I creating a deficit model about academic staff that Len
wants us to avoid with students? Lynne describes the kind of good
practice that I see here at Leeds and hear of elsewhere.
I want to reiterate the question John asks:
'BUT many of our colleagues - teachers, course, module, programme
leaders, assessment designers etc - are NOT part of this 'we' - for a
variety of reasons ... what can 'we' do about that?'
I see myself not only in the role of supporting learning directly with
students; I also work with staff in developing approaches to learning
support. I know when it 'feels ok' and when it doesn't. It feels wrong
when I am asked to 'do a workshop' on writing etc, where the lecturer
absents him/herself during the workshop, wants the input at the start of
the course, doesn't really engage with me about the problems the
students might be having and doesn't put in the necessary time to
discuss how the teaching may be made relevant to the assessed work the
students are being asked to do. This interaction is usually followed up
by a request the following year to 'run the session again'.
It 'feels ok' when I have a conversation that involves discussing what
are the problems that students on that course have, how we can design a
relevant piece of learning, usually as group work that is debriefed,
that draws on practices in the subject discipline and how we are going
to team teach it. This is usually followed by the member staff member
doing it for themselves next year.
On reflection I feel that given that I have many conversations of both
sorts, it isn't that I can't manage the conversation to the 'right'
outcome. I come to the conclusion that it is the 'teaching practice
approach' of the other person (to borrow Len's metaphor and adapt it to
this context). Often the person I am having the conversation with is
under a lot of time pressure.
So let me have a go at rephrasing John's and my original question about
how do we engage with academics. How can we discuss a teaching practice
approach that seems not to be universally understood/adopted? How do we
go about doing for academics what Len is proposing we do for students -
discuss what a teacher does in HE and why?
To do this we have to clarify the roles we are willing to play because
they deliver good learning. As exemplified by Lynne, the good learning
happens when the roles we are prepared to play are about collaboration,
sharing good practice, researching our impact, and being advocates for
education rather than transmission of knowledge.
Do we somehow need to set some sort of rules of engagement? What would
these be? How would we define our identities in HE?
Any other questions we should be asking ourselves?
Maggie
Maggie Boyle
Head of Skills Centre
Skills Centre
15 Blenheim Terrace
University of Leeds
LS2 9JT
0113 343 5306
www.leeds.ac.uk/skillscentre
-----Original Message-----
From: learning development in higher education network
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Hilsdon
Sent: 08 May 2006 12:25
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: just google it! NO, scholar.google it???
Hi Len and All
I am very supportive of the ideas Len put forward in response to the
message I sent last Friday.
(Len Holmes wrote: ... if we stop asking students to write **as a
student**, and **to** us as teachers, then we might start asking them to
write **as** ....scholars? practitioners in a particular field? Let's
stop asking students to write 'essays' (like wot they wrote at school,
thereby evoking school-pupil identity and behaviour). Let's ask them to
write **academic papers**, as writing an article for an academic journal
- like researcher/ scholar would. That would begin to evoke some sense
of the kind of identity to which they might aspire as a graduate.)
... and yes, Len, I think this IS kind of thing that we at UoP in
Learning Development, and that some colleagues in other Universities in
similar roles, actually do when we work with students. But this kind of
approach is still not particularly common. My response therefore is to
question or problematise the 'we' in Len's posting.
Regarding the 'we' of learning developers and academics who agree - to
the extent that this 'we' exists, I think we explore with students those
aspects of writing which are largely social practices, and try to unpack
them - and 'we' believe this is the best way to proceed in developing
learning! We encourage students to examine, practise and question the
roles of researcher, writer, reader, critic etc ... we attempt to
demystify these roles and the associated conventional and 'good'
practices.
BUT many of our colleagues - teachers, course, module, programme
leaders, assessment designers etc - are NOT part of this 'we' - for a
variety of reasons ... what can 'we' do about that?
AND, Len, although I broadly agree with you - isn't there also something
good, legitimate, useful, important, necessary about the role (subject
position) of 'student' - whilst still pursuing the line you promote,
that students should see themselves as already practitioners in their
field, not as existing in some parallel universe, as a 'mere' student
... some vague, context-free, 'pre' reality ....?
John
John Hilsdon
Co-ordinator, Learning Development
University of Plymouth
Drake Circus
Plymouth
PL4 8AA
01752 232276
[log in to unmask]
http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/learn
-----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Holmes [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 05 May 2006 16:00
To: John Hilsdon; [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: just google it! NO, scholar.google it???
John and colleagues
back to the referencing issue?
you ask:
> (How) Can this scramble to get assignments to fit academic
conventions
> for reasons of form alone ("so it's all proper in your references") or
> to get a tick in a box ("he said you have to be critical, didn't he?")
> be converted somehow into creative work that serves more
serious
> learning and study activities?
If we stop asking students to write **as a student**, and **to** us
as teachers, then we might start asking them to write **as**
....scholars? practitioners in a particular field?
Let's stop asking students to write 'essays' (like wot they wrote at
school, thereby evoking school-pupil identity and behaviour). Let's
ask them to write **academic papers**, as writing an article for an
academic journal - like a researcher/ scholar would. That would
begin to evoke some sense of the kind of identity to which they
might aspire as a graduate. They then need to become familiar with
the practices appropriate to such an identity, and familiar with what
is involved in the production of text that meets the expectations of
editors, reviewers and readers of academic journals. Those
expectation include appropriate citation and referencing.
As they do this, they would also become more familiarised with
academic literature, with the genres, style(s), conventions, flow and
rhythmns, etc. Through this, the textual artefacts of academic
knowledge production processes become demystified.
Of course, we may also want then to engage in the practices in
other arenas, eg of a particular occupational field. So we may want
them to, eg, write a report - not just 'in report form' but **to** a
particular audience, **from** a particular position.
Above all, it's a question of rehearsal of identity through
engagement in appropriate practices (cf the Lave and Wenger view
on situated learning **as** [not **through**] legitimate periheral
participation. Allied to that is that assessment involves us
(teachers/ assessors) deciding to what extent we would warrant
the students (usually implicit) claim to be worthy of the qualification
to which they aspire, and thus to the goods that are normally
associated (good job, good career, entry to advanced study,
respect).
As for Google, we should encourage students to use Google
Scholar, and to follow up citations of particular texts, as well as
other electronic facilities for searching scholarly literature.
On citation: students should cite **original** sources even when
they have discovered there existence through other sources,
whether textbooks or the web. It's the original author's ideas and
argument that the student is citing, not the fact that another writer
cites them.
nearly home time.
regards
Len
On 5 May 2006, at 15:33, John Hilsdon wrote:
> Dear All
>
>
>
> I'm working at our Exmouth campus today, where despite the gorgeous
> weather, Education Studies students are frantically completing
> assignments for imminent deadlines. Have just been for a coffee and
> overheard parts of a conversation including the following:
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -- -------------------------------------
>
>
>
> ...but I still need to find a criticism of x - he said you have to be
> critical, didn't he?
>
>
>
> So just Google it - put in something like criticisms of x - I'll be
> you'll get something if you put the book title in too
>
>
>
> Yeah but I got told a Google reference was no good
>
>
>
> You don't reference Google you ****** !
>
>
>
> Yeah but it's still an internet reference - they don't like that, do
> they
>
>
>
> You don't say it's from the internet do you ... you just find out the
> thing it was published in and copy that - so it's all proper in your
> references ...
>
>
>
> Take you about ten minutes, mate - honest!
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -- --------------------------
>
>
>
> Have a stack of urgent stuff but couldn't resist relaying this!
>
>
>
> Some of the things that went through my head - in no particular order:
>
>
>
> So what? Should we worry?
>
>
>
> Is it just a 'game' being played here - if so, is it being played
> well?
>
>
>
> Wouldn't I be doing things the same way if I were a student today
> (especially with a deadline to meet)?
>
>
>
> Whose 'fault' is it that students do things/see things this way at
> university?
>
>
>
> Does the growing awareness of the rules of the 'game' these students
> display contribute/substitute in any way for good academic practice in
> reading and referring to relevant sources?
>
>
>
> Is discouragement of the use of Google in such circumstances just
> snobbery?
>
>
>
> (How) Can this scramble to get assignments to fit academic conventions
> for reasons of form alone ("so it's all proper in your references") or
> to get a tick in a box ("he said you have to be critical, didn't he?")
> be converted somehow into creative work that serves more serious
> learning and study activities?
>
>
>
> Might the activity suggested in the conversation lead to some genuine
> study reading/research if the topic is interesting enough and the
> student decides to follow it up later?
>
>
>
> Anyway ... back to the 'urgent' stuff!
>
> John Hilsdon
> Co-ordinator, Learning Development
> Educational Development
> University of Plymouth
> Drake Circus
> Plymouth
> PL4 8AA
>
> 01752 232276
> [log in to unmask]
> www.plymouth.ac.uk/learn
>
>
>
>
Dr Leonard Holmes
Principal Lecturer in Human Resource Management
Manager of Postgraduate Programmes in HRM
Luton Business School, Putteridge Bury Campus,
Hitchin Road, Luton LU2 8LE
tel. 01582 743111 ext 5014
email [log in to unmask]
websites: http://www.re-skill.org.uk
http://www.odysseygroup.org.uk
email: [log in to unmask]
websites: www.re-skill.org.uk
www.odysseygroup.org.uk
|
