And I also took exception to Ged's generalisations.
Frankly, if we believe in working transparently then let's keep the list open. Should anybody feel that they have particular issues with committing any sensitive data to the public domain on an email list then the prudent course of action would be to email privately to individual list members and mark the subject of the email 'Confidential'. If we don't take responsibility for how we treat sensitive data then we can't expect others to take that responsibility for us. As it happens, Phil Baty's work is widely acknowledged to be of an extremely high standard. Please also bear in mind that Phil did not hide behind the anonymity that being a member of an email list could have imparted to him: when he did pick up an issue he openly identified himself as a journalist and made it perfectly clear that any exchanges would be on this basis.
The bottom line is : Phil Baty attempted to gain informed consent.
If we close the list to journalists then who next? Researchers? And then who? Others we decide we don't trust? Those who we disagree with? I'd far rather keep the list open and just counsel that members follow the general rule of sending non-sensitive email to an email distribution list but sharing sensitive or confidential information more appropriately and clearly marking it as such.
Regards,
David
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HE Administrators equal opportunities list
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Baty, Phil
> Sent: 25 August 2004 11:44
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Phil Baty
>
>
> I take exception to this false claim that I have "gone ahead
> and written a piece without checking and clearing with [my]
> source". This would amount to "bad journalism" as alleged,
> but it is simply not true.
>
> As has been clearly established, Susanna, albeit in
> ignorance, made a public statement about her concerns about
> the limitations of her own university's equal opportunities
> procedures. This statement is now openly published on the
> Internet for all to see.
>
> According to Susanna's expert analysis, a major British
> university, currently recruiting students in droves through
> the clearing process, may not be admitting disabled students
> according to best practice, and indeed may even be breaking
> the law. This assessment, from the university's own head of
> equal opportunities, is also shared by a number of equality
> experts, including Skill.
>
> This is clearly a cause for public concern. The university is
> recruiting students right now, and disabled students may be
> being treated less favourably as we write. A specialist HE
> paper with a mission to hold institutions to account and to
> discourage bad management and encourage best practice must
> surely see this an a matter of public interest and has a duty
> to report it. Public scrutiny of this problem can surely only
> lead to improved practice.
>
> Once I took a legitimate interest, on the above grounds, I
> contacted Susanna -- as both a courtesy to let her know I had
> picked up her thread, and as a formal invitation to her to
> comment further, and to expand on, or add context, to her
> public comments.
>
> She chose not to contact me or communicate with me directly,
> choosing instead to post messages on the matter to the list.
>
> I also contacted the university for comment.
>
> Phil Baty
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HE Administrators equal opportunities list
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 25 August 2004 10:51
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Phil Baty
>
>
> That's exaqctly what he has done. I don't mind who is a
> member, but I do objecgtto a member of the list using
> information for Journalistic purposes. The fact is that I
> wrote that email not knowing anybody on the listwould do such a thing.
>
> Susanna.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HE Administrators equal opportunities list
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of G.Shire
> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 4:31 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Phil Baty
>
>
> I have just three points:
> (i)A lot of people who have and need to be on this list work
> as consultants offering advice, guidance and training to the
> sector and a wide range of institutions. They may also be
> journalists - so a straight forward 'academic institution'
> membership will not do.
>
> (ii)The value ridden maxims or so called neutral ideas that
> govern the sector are not about equality and that is why the
> work is so often creatively oppositional. Institutional
> inequalities are unwritten, embedded and embodied - so we
> need as many allies as we can get working with us within and
> outside of our institutions. (iii)If Phil Baty has gone ahead
> and written a piece without checking and clearing with his
> source then that's just plain bad journalism and nothing to
> do with the maintenance of the list.
>
> George
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Susanna Hancock [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 24 August 2004 15:09
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Phil Baty
>
>
> Fiona, your usual excellent summing up of the issue, in my view.
>
> Susanna.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HE Administrators equal opportunities list
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Fiona McLean (HR-UCL)
> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 2:57 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Phil Baty
>
>
> Hi!
>
> I think it is vital that Jiscmail members, know who is on the
> mailing list and whether anyone can get access and be placed
> on it just for the asking? Also without being too suspicious,
> when someone joins, how we know they are who they say they
> are?! Can Michelle, the mailing list administrator, let us
> know? (Thanks.)
>
> Like many colleagues I do not consider myself to be naïve,
> but had not given much thought to a network called 'HE
> administrators equal opportunities list', including others,
> say interested journalists. Without imputing the integrity of
> Mr. Baty, or his profession, a 'good story' is hard to resist
> by a good journalist and I would not like our discussions to
> be inhibited so we don't inadvertently provide 'good copy'.
>
> If researchers, or others wish to canvass views, or elicit
> the expertise of we HE EO operatives, surely they can ask
> Michelle to circulate something on their behalf, without them
> necessarily being on the list?
>
> Regards, Fiona
>
> Equal Opportunities Co-ordinator,
> 90 Tottenham Court Road,
> Tel:0207-679-9761 or Internal: 09761
> BUT PLEASE NOTE: All mail should be addressed to:
> F.McLean,
> HR, UCL,
> Gower Street,
> London WC1E 6BT.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HE Administrators equal opportunities list
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of GA Murray
> Sent: 24 August 2004 14:02
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Phil Baty
>
>
> Dear All
>
> I have found this list very useful as a reader than as a
> contributor & would be disappointed if it lost its openness.
> I had no idea that journalists were accessing the site & do
> think that must be stopped by going to a closed position as
> suggested by Paul Marshall.
>
> Having in a previous existence worked in the media
> (broadcasting rather than print but the lack of ethics &
> search for story at all costs are if anything even worse in
> print) I think it is extremely naive to think journalists
> operate with any integrity or honesty to any particular
> organisation. Journalist move papers that are ideologically
> opposed without any problem. Perhaps after his latest scoop
> Mr Baty will get promoted to NoW!
>
> Ged Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HE Administrators equal opportunities list
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jane Osmond end
> Sent: 24 August 2004 13:21
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Phil Baty
>
>
> > Hi all
>
> It would be a shame for the list to become closed to people
> other than EO practitioners - I, for one, would not be
> allowed to be part of it in that case. I have found it very
> useful during the two staff equal opps projects I have worked
> on and now I am investigating student retention in the
> engineering school, the various threads about
> inclusion/potential exclusion are very useful to me.
>
> Perhaps a way forward is to discuss more sensitive matters
> 'off-list' with particular colleagues?
>
> Meanwhile, I would have thought it was in our interest to
> have Phil Baty on-side - most educational journalists in my
> experience rarely want to harm the sector they are reporting
> on, and indeed can become great allies in the drive to
> improve standards.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Jane Osmond
> Research Assistant
> Coventry University
>
> That's what I thought, Paul, but, clearly, I was mistaken.
> >
> > Susanna.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: HE Administrators equal opportunities list
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul Marshall
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 11:48 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Times Higher
> >
> >
> > Susanna, can I suggest that the list owner/ moderator
> should try to
> > identify how this reported picked up on the thread of this
> discussion.
>
> > This list is intended to be private. Jiscmail should be able to help
> > preserve security.
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > l----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Susanna Hancock" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 10:47 AM
> > Subject: FW: Times Higher
> >
> >
> > > Colleagues, as you will see from the attached, the mail
> base
> > is
> > > not a place where we can have an open discussion of EO issues.
> > >
> > > Susanna.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Baty, Phil [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 10:30 AM
> > > To: Susanna Hancock
> > > Subject: Times Higher
> > >
> > >
> > > Susanna,
> > >
> > > As a courtesy, I wanted to let you know that I'd picked up on a
> > thread
> > > on a web discussion list where you expressed your
> discomfort about
>
> > Mdx's
> > > admissions policies.
> > >
> > > I'm making some enquiries to see if the university's policy is
> > unfair/discriminatory or not.
> > >
> > > I hope this doesn't cause you too much embarrassment or
> > difficulties with your colleagues at Mdx, but I'm sure you'll
> > understand that its an
> > > important issue of great public interest.
> > >
> > > If you have any further comments, don't hesitate to get back to
> me.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Phil Baty
> > > Chief Reporter
> > > The Times Higher Education Supplement
> > > Phone: 020 7782 3298 (fax: 3300)
> > > http://www.thes.co.uk
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The Newspaper Marketing Agency: Opening Up Newspapers:
> > >
> > > www.nmauk.co.uk
> > >
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>
> The Newspaper Marketing Agency: Opening Up Newspapers:
>
> www.nmauk.co.uk
>
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