On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, John Hughes wrote:
> He might have asked in his FOI request: "Can you confirm that no one by the
> name of Tim Trent attended your hospital on a particular date?" Surely the
> question refers to a group of individuals and not one in particular,
> therefore no personal data is being sought.
I've always thought that absence of positive information is sometimes
positive information in itself. In the example given above, it partially
comes back to the old issue of uniqueness of name (and in this case,
localised to an area served by the Authority) which is of particular
interest to me and which has been previously discussed.
Even regardless of that, if the name were "John Smith", does saying "Yes,
one or persons called John Smith attended this hospital" not infringe on
the privacy of every John Smith who did so, even though the person you are
telling may not know if one of them was "your" John Smith? If they can't
be sure, from your answer, if it refers to the person they are interested
in, what have they gained from the answer anyway? If they can be sure,
then you've infringed the rights of (a) John Smith.
I personally would give something like the bland non-explanatory
explanatory answer previously mentioned ("had that person attended the
hospital on that date, we would not be able to disclose that information;
you should not construe a refusal to disclose that information as
confirmation that it exists, or not" or some such), and to hell with
playing semantic games with someone who really shouldn't be asking the
question in the first place (of the Authority) (yeah yeah, you're not
supposed to consider why someone wants information under FoIA. blah blah
...).
Jethro.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Trent [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 10 June 2005 12:42
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [data-protection] Disclosure or not?
>
>
> Wait! Do you mean YOU can put in an FOI request and see MY hospital
> appointment records?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hawley, Graeme
> Sent: 10 June 2005 12:40
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [data-protection] Disclosure or not?
>
> I like Margarita and Jethro's responses, and agree that this would be far
> more ideal. However, if a request for information is made to a public
> authority, then the FOIA / FOI(S)A requires them to provide a response
> relating to the information that they hold about that particular issue, and
> does not permit the authority to tell the applicant to go ask elsewhere
> instead (even though I do think that that would be a better course of
> action).
>
> Graeme Hawley
> National Library of Scotland
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Jethro R Binks
> Sent: 10 June 2005 12:35
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [data-protection] Disclosure or not?
>
>
> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Tim Trent wrote:
>
> > And that gives us the problem. Each argument holds water. And since
> > each argument holds water there are grounds for a dispute. If the
> > dispute is settled in favour of the employee it is likely to be a
> > disclosure that has caused damage or distress.
> >
> > I am considering it to be very specific personal data. It gives
> > details to the employer that the employee was allegedly not at an
> > appointment with that place in that date. By giving them this data
> > about their employee, despite the valid point that it is an "absence
> > of data", they now have additional data about that employee.
>
> It seems to me the solution is rather simpler (or perhaps it's me who is
> simple :).
>
> Why is the employer going behind their employees back on the matter?
> Surely they should be discussing this with their employee, and asking them
> to furnish proof if they suspect misbehaviour (while being cogniscent of
> their employee's right to privacy)? Such proof might take the form of a
> letter from the health authority that the employee himself asks to be
> written on his behalf - suitably anonymised from features that may identify
> a particular department or service attended (so not from the GUM clinic
> specifically, for example). The letter can be checked by employee and
> handed to his employer; the employer can then contact the health authority
> to check the validity of the letter if necessary.
>
> This is perhaps a means of implementing your suggestion:
>
> > The best answer is surely "We require proof that you have the right to
> > any information at all about this person and that they permit you to
> > have that information before we will give you any information at all.
> > You may not interpret this answer as giving you any information of any
> > description about that person"
>
> Jethro.
>
>
> > We are not interest here in any alleged deception by the employee. We
> > should only be interested in protecting their rights. Even murderers
> > have rights.
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: Lewis, Chris G. [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: 10 June 2005 12:18
> > To: Tim Trent; [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: RE: [data-protection] Disclosure or not?
> >
> >
> > I disagree. I think were one to say, as suggested "no-one of that name
> > had an appointment", you are not disclosing anything about any
> > individual in isolation - "no-one called John Smith was here". I can't
> > see that a John Smith could complain that that was an unauthorised
> > disclsoure of their personal data. Firstly, I don't think it's
> > personal data, and secondly, it would equally be known to a member of
> > the public who sat in reception all day as it was to the hospital.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues on
> > behalf of Tim Trent
> > Sent: Fri 10/06/2005 12:14
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Cc:
> > Subject: Re: [data-protection] Disclosure or not?
> >
> >
> >
> > I would suggest that disclosing where "someone was not" is a disclosure of
>
> > personal data, and in this case to a third party without authorisation.
> >
> > What if this person were attending the GUM clinic for an HIV test and has
> > absolutely NO desire for his employer (or alleged employer) to know?
> >
> > They have now also passed data to you, an unauthorised third party, of
> their
> >
> > suspicions of their employee.
> >
> > My advice?
> >
> > Avoid. Do not answer without permission form the data subject.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Hughes
> > Sent: 10 June 2005 12:09
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: [data-protection] Disclosure or not?
> >
> > A question for you:
> >
> > I have been contacted by a company asking whether or not one of their
> > employees had an appointment with us one recent Friday afternoon. They
> > suspect that they have been handed a faked appointment letter by the
> > employee as proof.
> >
> > If I replied by simply stating "no one of that name had an appointment
> here
> > on that date", would I be on safe ground? My rationale is that I am
> > disclosing nothing as nothing actually took place.
> >
> > John Hughes
> > DPO
> > Mayday Healthcare NHS Trust
> >
> >
> >
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> Jethro R Binks
> Computing Officer, IT Services
> University Of Strathclyde, Glasgow, UK
>
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Jethro R Binks
Computing Officer, IT Services
University Of Strathclyde, Glasgow, UK
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