davidwyatt on 12 June 2005 at 23:13 said:-
> But why do you want to be helpful when there are no benefits
> and only a cost
> and risk?.
Although apparently valid such approaches frequently deny even a relatively
rational logic. i.e. Why have any communication about the subject at all!
Considering vested interests could lead to a completely different answer
where the social group needing the information were the data controller of
that information, or if the requestor were a major shareholder?
Accurately reviewing all of the decision making process and influencing
factors could simply enough identify the weak points in such a stance.
Although DP provides a logical legal framework, it does require
consideration of fairness and other value issues, even if the answer to
those considerations may be that an exemption applies and any values should
be discarded in favour of placing reliance upon other gatekeepers.
No sustainable organisational interests would survive ignoring wider
environmental factors in the way put forward without other actions
eventually being necessary, which in themselves would then weaken and dilute
the organisational focus originally thought to be being maintained.
Ian W
N.B. My apologies to the group for the missent e-mail RE:Privacy filters,
Sunday 12/06/2005 11:06.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection
> issues [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of davidwyatt
> Sent: 12 June 2005 23:13
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: FW: [data-protection] Disclosure or not?
>
>
> But why do you want to be helpful when there are no benefits
> and only a cost
> and risk?.
>
> David Wyatt
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Hughes" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 1:23 PM
> Subject: [data-protection] FW: [data-protection] Disclosure or not?
>
>
> > Just to clarify the situation further, the employer has in
> fact sent
> > me a copy of the appointment letter (I'm not going into the
> rights or
> > wrongs of his doing this) - I have received it and am responding to
> > his written request for clarification as to whether or not the
> > appointment took place. I have no consent from the patient
> and do not
> > want to disclose any of their personal data. However I want to be
> > helpful, mainly because the letter is quite clearly a fake (no
> > letterhead, hospital address is wrong, plus a number of other
> > incorrect details).
> >
> > Instead perhaps I should reply by simply stating that the
> consultant
> > in question does not hold clinics on Fridays ..... another error!!!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Hawley, Graeme [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: 10 June 2005 13:01
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [data-protection] Disclosure or not?
> >
> >
> > I can put in a request about absolutely anything at all, even the
> > colour
> > of
> > your underpants. The point is whether the authority holds
> the information
> > and then whether it should be disclosed or withheld. But
> once a request
> > is
> > received by an authority, it must be dealt with by that
> authority and not
> > be
> > batted back to the applicant with the recommendation that
> they ask someone
> > else. So in this case, if the employer asks the health board for
> > information about the attendance or lack of attendance by
> an employee at
> > an
> > appointment, the response from the health board cannot be
> "we think you
> > should be discussing this with your truant, not us".
> However, what the
> > health board could do, in Scotland anyway, is resort to
> section 18 of
> > FOISA
> > which states that:
> >
> > (1) Where, if information existed and was held by a Scottish public
> > authority, the authority could give a refusal notice under section
> > 16(1) on the basis that the information was exempt information by
> > virtue of any of sections 28 to 35, 39(1) or 41 but the authority
> > considers that to reveal whether the information exists or
> is so held
> > would be contrary to the public
> > interest, it may (whether or not the information does exist
> and is held by
> > it) give the applicant a refusal notice by virtue of this section.
> >
> > Freedom of information is fun!!
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Tim Trent
> > Sent: 10 June 2005 12:42
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [data-protection] Disclosure or not?
> >
> >
> > Wait! Do you mean YOU can put in an FOI request and see MY
> hospital
> > appointment records?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hawley, Graeme
> > Sent: 10 June 2005 12:40
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [data-protection] Disclosure or not?
> >
> > I like Margarita and Jethro's responses, and agree that
> this would be
> > far more ideal. However, if a request for information is made to a
> > public authority, then the FOIA / FOI(S)A requires them to
> provide a
> > response relating to the information that they hold about that
> > particular issue, and does not permit the authority to tell the
> > applicant to go ask elsewhere instead (even though I do think that
> > that would be a better course of action).
> >
> > Graeme Hawley
> > National Library of Scotland
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Jethro R Binks
> > Sent: 10 June 2005 12:35
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [data-protection] Disclosure or not?
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Tim Trent wrote:
> >
> >> And that gives us the problem. Each argument holds water.
> And since
> >> each argument holds water there are grounds for a dispute. If the
> >> dispute is settled in favour of the employee it is likely to be a
> >> disclosure that has caused damage or distress.
> >>
> >> I am considering it to be very specific personal data. It gives
> >> details to the employer that the employee was allegedly not at an
> >> appointment with that place in that date. By giving them
> this data
> >> about their employee, despite the valid point that it is
> an "absence
> >> of data", they now have additional data about that employee.
> >
> > It seems to me the solution is rather simpler (or perhaps
> it's me who
> > is simple :).
> >
> > Why is the employer going behind their employees back on
> the matter?
> > Surely they should be discussing this with their employee,
> and asking
> > them to furnish proof if they suspect misbehaviour (while being
> > cogniscent of their employee's right to privacy)? Such proof might
> > take the form of a letter from the health authority that
> the employee
> > himself asks to be written on his behalf - suitably anonymised from
> > features that may identify a particular department or
> service attended
> > (so not from the GUM clinic specifically, for example). The letter
> > can be checked by employee and handed to his employer; the employer
> > can then contact the health authority to check the validity of the
> > letter if necessary.
> >
> > This is perhaps a means of implementing your suggestion:
> >
> >> The best answer is surely "We require proof that you have
> the right
> >> to any information at all about this person and that they
> permit you
> >> to have that information before we will give you any
> information at
> >> all. You may not interpret this answer as giving you any
> information
> >> of any description about that person"
> >
> > Jethro.
> >
> >
> >> We are not interest here in any alleged deception by the
> employee.
> >> We should only be interested in protecting their rights. Even
> >> murderers have rights.
> >>
> >> _____
> >>
> >> From: Lewis, Chris G. [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> >> Sent: 10 June 2005 12:18
> >> To: Tim Trent; [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: RE: [data-protection] Disclosure or not?
> >>
> >>
> >> I disagree. I think were one to say, as suggested "no-one of that
> >> name had an appointment", you are not disclosing anything
> about any
> >> individual in isolation - "no-one called John Smith was here". I
> >> can't see that a John Smith could complain that that was an
> >> unauthorised disclsoure of their personal data. Firstly, I don't
> >> think it's personal data, and secondly, it would equally
> be known to
> >> a member of the public who sat in reception all day as it
> was to the
> >> hospital.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection
> issues on
> >> behalf of Tim Trent
> >> Sent: Fri 10/06/2005 12:14
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Cc:
> >> Subject: Re: [data-protection] Disclosure or not?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I would suggest that disclosing where "someone was not" is a
> >> disclosure
> >> of
> >
> >> personal data, and in this case to a third party without
> >> authorisation.
> >>
> >> What if this person were attending the GUM clinic for an
> HIV test and
> >> has absolutely NO desire for his employer (or alleged employer) to
> >> know?
> >>
> >> They have now also passed data to you, an unauthorised
> third party,
> >> of
> > their
> >>
> >> suspicions of their employee.
> >>
> >> My advice?
> >>
> >> Avoid. Do not answer without permission form the data subject.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Hughes
> >> Sent: 10 June 2005 12:09
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: [data-protection] Disclosure or not?
> >>
> >> A question for you:
> >>
> >> I have been contacted by a company asking whether or not
> one of their
> >> employees had an appointment with us one recent Friday afternoon.
> >> They suspect that they have been handed a faked
> appointment letter by
> >> the employee as proof.
> >>
> >> If I replied by simply stating "no one of that name had an
> >> appointment
> > here
> >> on that date", would I be on safe ground? My rationale is
> that I am
> >> disclosing nothing as nothing actually took place.
> >>
> >> John Hughes
> >> DPO
> >> Mayday Healthcare NHS Trust
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
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> > Jethro R Binks
> > Computing Officer, IT Services
> > University Of Strathclyde, Glasgow, UK
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