I very much agree with Sarah's point. I have been very impressed by the serious and respectful way that contributors to the discussion have responded to points of view different to their own. But one thing that has struck me is a tendency to see the discussion in terms of a tension between religious and secular perspectives. Sarah reminds us that there are LGBT people of different faiths working with these issues, such as the Lesbian Gay Christian Movement. No doubts there are other examples. So I think we should be grateful to Sheila for triggering this discussion.
________________________________________
From: ESOL-Research discussion forum and message board [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sarah Estop [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 17 November 2012 10:50
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: LGBT Issues (middle ground perhaps?)
Perhaps the middle ground can be found amongst people of faith who both practise their faith, and live their L, G, B and/or T life, and find no disharmony between the two.
I am not an expert on religious matters (and I appreciate the reminder from Hugo that we live in a secular society), but I venture to raise the issue of interpretation of religious texts. Do we read and proclaim the texts, or carefully selected parts of the texts, through the lens of our own viewpoint?
Sarah Estop
On 17 Nov 2012, at 07:33, Hugo Kerr wrote:
I accept that, perhaps especially in a classroom situation, soapboxes are inappropriate! However, the context, in Britain, is secular. Notwithstanding this the democratic majority is still required to respect religious views enforced in practice. For example the Christian faith as presently constituted in the UK legally discriminates against gays and women. The rest of us are expected to respect this as it is a supposedly sacred dogma. Our attitudes will affect how we approach all aspects of our life. We need to be clear that we ought not to blindly respect all opinion and certainly not all practice. We need to be clear we will not accept discrimination. How loudly we proclaim this, where and how, is the issue, not the basic view. I am with you that it is not something which is likely to benefit from full frontal debate, in the light of the foregoing, but our basic view must be considered and democratic.
www/HugoKerr.info
On 17 Nov 2012, at 04:37, Mumtaz Ayub <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Absolutely. Mutual respect within the context of the law is a practical way to generate cooperation and strong dynamics without necessarily entering into ideological struggles within the classroom. Vibrant debate is a vital part of the ESOL - indeed, the British - experience, but I've always been wary of turning classrooms into soapboxes for particular world views. I've seen colleagues ('religious' and 'secular') do this, and it usually ends up with students feeling bullied as well as frustrated at not having (been given?) enough language to 'argue with the teacher'. And never have I heard a student claim that she had been saved from 'unreason'.
Best regards,
Mumtaz
On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 2:03 AM, Khadijah <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Dear Hugo,
With all due respect, I disagree. Respecting or abiding by and encouraging learners to abide by democratically reached legal positions is precisely what a number of people on here, including myself, have been agreeing should be the approach (not necessarily the only approach).
There has been movement and the movement is this: religious people who abide by religious rules, do not apply these rules to others who do not subscribe to the religion and therefore, do not insult, persecute or abuse them. I have no doubt that whatever people's beliefs, being humane and treating others as they would wish to be treated is where consensus lies. This is the middle ground.
Perhaps some people, who are from homogeneous communities abroad may find the society we have here surprising and need some help in clarifying where they stand/how they react, which is as Dominic highlights, where ESOL teachers can help. Both those who hold religious views on LGBT and those who do not.
If people abandoning their beliefs altogether, because they do not seem rational to others, however, is the degree of movement necessary, then I am afraid you are likely to be disappointed on this issue. Perhaps some will change their minds, but not those who have made an informed decision to practise their faith, and I believe people have a right to make such decisions.
As far as I'm aware, there is no denial that for some people being gay is a given. I have no doubt some religious people we have encountered have denied it, but to generalise to all religions and religious people is to over generalise. I would explain the paradigm which enables religious people to see a choice in the practising of LGBT, but will refrain, because I have failed so far in trying to illustrate the differences in viewpoints (and I apologise, Claire, for making sexuality sound inconsequential in the process). I can't explain it without the risk of it being taken to apply to all and, therefore, causing upset or outrage, which is definitely not my intention.
Goodnight,
Khadijah
On 16 November 2012 09:31, Hugo Kerr <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Absolutely right. For there to be a middle ground, though, there has to be tolerance and movement from both ends of the spectrum. We have been urged to be tolerant and respectful of beliefs and their positions, but have heard no call for beliefs to move at all, not even to respect democratically reached legal positions. It is implicitly assumed that a belief entitles whereas a rationally reached view does not. There is very good evidence, has been for donkeys's years, that sexual orientation is not chosen but given. Why is denial of this to be respected merely because it comes decorated in ancient texts? I am not gay, but I would be very cross if I were! This is, finally, a secular country. It has been a battle, but reason has made ground. This also deserves respect, surely?
www/HugoKerr.info
On 15 Nov 2012, at 22:29, Claire Collins <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I've felt a range of emotions as I've followed this discussion - I am a gay ESOL teacher (not practicing right now but many years in the classroom under my belt - practicing ESOL that is - lesbianism is something I practice everyday :D ).
I cannot accept any stance, religious or otherwise, that positions who I am as a life choice, like eating pork or drinking alcohol. I'm a vegetarian too and I accept that this was a choice I made 25 years ago but I never chose to be gay, it's certainly not a question of moral standing, it's how I was born and it's not always been easy. Nevertheless, I have chosen to always be open and honest about my sexuality. Personally, I can't be any other way, even when it leads to challenging situations or negative reactions (rare but hard to take when it happens and as a young ESOL teacher I could easily have chosen to let learners assume I had a male partner to make life easier for myself).
If I'm not open to discussion about being gay in any context, including an ESOL setting, I am surely not supporting the process of language socialisation, my job as an ESOL teacher. For those learners who have fled persecution for who they are, I have a duty to show them that they have a right to be open and free in the UK and I need to help them find the language tools they need to stand up to prejudice and fear.
There's so much more I want to say but I'll leave it there for now...Just one more point: Keep talking, on this list and everywhere - it's the only way we can 'out' the prejudice in society that masks itself under the guise of 'religion' or 'family values'. It is when people remain silent that terrible events happen and ESOL practitioners and learners have a unique role in our super diverse society to fight for a world where everyone is free to be who they were born to be.
Best wishes all,
Claire (Collins)
On 14 Nov 2012, at 11:35, dominic mccabe <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Of course these issues will arise in one form another in life outside the class anyway. The question is whether we leave that part of all learners' likely life experience out of the classroom or we give them some perspectives, some tools, some ways of thinking about how they think and how they might act when presented with a range of possible 'real life' situations. Sounds very metacognitive, very situated learning, very educational, very embedded. How can Ofsted fault us when we are hitting so many buzzwords and how can we not (carefully and thoughtfully as Khadijah details) provide the learners with a safe place to do this?
Cheers Dominic McCabe
From: Liam Sewell <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, 14 November 2012, 14:48
Subject: Re: LGBT Issues (middle ground perhaps?)
I was going to add something but people keep saying very eloquently whatever I think to add anyway.
From: ESOL-Research discussion forum and message board [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Melanie Cook
Sent: 14 November 2012 14:15
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: LGBT Issues (middle ground perhaps?)
Thanks for some really interesting thought provoking posts over the last 24 hours. It has certainly made me think!
The discussion began with a question about why a group is being set up in London to focus on LGBT questions. The ensuing debate has gone much further than this though and has shown that ESOL is in the centre of some of the most vexing philosophical and political issues of the day. In fact these are the very questions we began to debate at the NATECLA meeting in October, and point directly to the reasons the group is being set up!
I for one am delighted to see this all being debated on the ESOL research list - long may it continue.
Mel Cooke.
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
From: "Isserlis, Janet" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Sender: ESOL-Research discussion forum and message board <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 08:49:42 -0500
To: <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
ReplyTo: "Isserlis, Janet" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Subject: Re: LGBT Issues (middle ground perhaps?)
*and* as an ally, does one put one's LGBQT colleagues at risk in unforeseen ways? complex negotiations and discussions that need to occur.
Janet
On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:45 AM, Rachel Terry <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
To pick up on Helen’s point – it is much harder to tackle this ‘material’ if you yourself are personally implicated in it. As a LGBT teacher you can be afraid that it will lead to a change or even breakdown in your relationship with the students and possible further ramifications for you within your organisation. Although you know there is legislation to back you up, it doesn’t get rid of the feeling that you are putting your neck on the line in some way.
Rachel
Calderdale College Francis Street Halifax HX1 3UZ
01422 357357 email:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> <http://www.calderdale.ac.uk/> www.calderdale.ac.uk<http://www.calderdale.ac.uk/>
From: ESOL-Research discussion forum and message board [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Helen Butt
Sent: 14 November 2012 12:18
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: LGBT Issues (middle ground perhaps?)
Likewise, I have been following this discussion with fascination. I didn’t actually realise that there was a problem with discussing controversial issues in the language classroom. I do it on a regular basis and the students at worst seem engaged with the material.
Isn‘t it rather patronising to assume what someone will or won’t be offended by anyway?
My students constantly ‘surprise’ me with how ‘liberal’ their thinking is.
Helen
From: ESOL-Research discussion forum and message board [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of John Sutter
Sent: 14 November 2012 09:41
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: LGBT Issues (middle ground perhaps?)
Hi all,
Been following this thread with fascination.... and thought it might be worth mentioning Alastair Pennycook's brilliant chapter "The Politics of Difference" in his book "Critical Applied Linguistics - a critical introduction" (Routledge), which specifically discusses LGBT 'issues' and ESOL..... worth quoting a bit:
"One of the major silences in TESOL has been sexual orientation.....there remain many basic attitudes in TESOL that need to be shifted, including a general assumed heterosexism; a belief that questions of sexual preference have no place in ESL; a belief that students from other countries would find questions of sexual orientation too controversial.....a sexist acknowledgement of gay men in ESL but ignorance of lesbian teachers; a tendency for straight teachers to assume gay and lesbian issues are not their concern and should be addressed by gay and lesbian teachers themselves." (2001:158)
Pennycook's s very much of the view (as am I) that a large part of the 'problem' is with our liberal-humanist framing of education/teaching/language which seems to put us the position of 'tolerating' difference. I will tolerate your (to me) inconceivably outdated/sexist/prejudiced (delete as appropriate) religious beliefs if you will tolerate my (to you) sinful/ illegal / corrupt sexual practices. From either side, it looks as though we're being asked to tolerate the intolerable. And in any case to be 'tolerated' is a rather compromised position to occupy anyway - a strange mixture of patronage (note the roots of that word!) and disengagement.... I hardly think my gay friends would welcome my tolerance of them! Or my 'black' friends. Or my wife.
I think tolerance discourse also leads us back to essentialist ideas about identity & gender/ethnicity/religion etc - themselves all very much part of a colonialist/modernist classificatory worldview that bedevils discussion and ties us up in knots. (E.g. 'multiculturalism' / 'multilingualism' - these are presumed to be good things, but are themselves built on the rather dodgy idea that there really are such things as different cultures or languages that we all 'fit into' in 'classificatory' terms).
Pennycook again "this issue [LBGT/sexuality] tends to operate from a mixture of liberalism and emancipatory modernism, suggesting that by rational discussion of questions of difference, we will arrive at greater tolerance or understanding. ....[but] to develop antihomophobic or antiracist education requires much more than simply some rational, intellectual explanation of what is wrong with racism or homophobia. Rather, we need an engagement with people's investment in particular discourses, that is, questions of desire." (ibid 159).
In other words - it's about engagement with 'otherness', without any presumed outcomes (such as 'tolerance' or 'empowerment' or a particular model of what society should be like). Scary, eh? But for me, given that our subject ('language' I guess) is so intimately connected to and generative of power and knowledge, it's a position we can't avoid......
Could go on, but have to go...
all best
John
John Sutter, Director
Learning Unlimited
Institute of Education
20 Bedford Way, London WC1H 0AL
Tel: 020 7911 5561 / 07813836559
Skype name: jssutter
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Web: http://www.learningunlimited.co/
On 14 Nov 2012, at 08:37, Peter Griffiths wrote:
I’ve enjoyed reading all these posts this morning.
I have to say this post is very well written and I totally agree with it.
Peter
From: ESOL-Research discussion forum and message board [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Khadijah
Sent: 13 November 2012 23:55
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: LGBT Issues (middle ground perhaps?)
Hello,
We've been following the discussion at work and it has prompted people to share their views. It occurred to me during that that there was lack of clarity as to whether LGBT-friendly images would be used by teachers in classes located in settings which might not appreciate them, for example we work at a Muslim children's centre and an orthodox Jewish one. Someone said something along the lines of "views change" and I had to point out that actually, they don't with regards to this particular issue for practising religious people, specifically in the Islamic schools of thought, which I feel I can comment on (but am open to being corrected). Islamically, rulings on PRACTISING LGBT (as opposed to being gay, but not practising) are not the same as those related to domestic violence, the treatment of people of other religions, views on Christians/ atheists, evolution, racism, etc., they are more akin to rulings on pork or alcohol, for example. If you can persuade your Muslim students to have a pork pie, you'll have no trouble persuading them that practising LGBT is religiously allowed for Muslims.
I am all for challenging people's views- there is always so much to gain for both parties even no views are changed, but I think when it comes to rulings such as these, what is being challenged is essentially what students consider divine decree and an ESOL classroom is not the best place for such debates (unless of course the ESOL learners in a group insist it is!). What is important is that with all such religious rules, they apply to ONLY those who subscribe to the religion, not others who have no interest in it and sometimes this is forgotten, although while teaching, my Muslim students were quite happy to accept this as an obvious fact.
Based on this, and assuming you agree that we do not want to convert learners in or out of religions during ESOL hours, I would suggest what needs to be focused on or reiterated is the legality of LGBT in the UK and the freedom of LGBT people to practise what they believe in freely without any persecution or hatred directed towards them. Just as people of different religions are able to practise their religions freely. This is different to saying 'being LGBT it is right and your religion is wrong', which not only is an approach that will likely be rejected outright by religious people- ESOL learners and others- but also puts limits on the toleration which we are proud of and wish to encourage- it's a weird sort of liberalism that only tolerates itself. Religious people can subscribe to being governed by religious laws which they see fit to rule their lives. They cannot enforce these laws on people who do not subscribe to this way of life, just as those people cannot enforce any other way of life upon them. I think this solves the dilemma for teachers who may be religious too.
Essentially, what I think I'm saying is that the LGBT group that has been organised should consider the religious perspectives of some of our learners and at least initially approach the issue from the rather more neutral British legal point of view, because if the discussion begins with the right and wrong of it all, it would be difficult to find consensus and personally, I think something religious teachers would avoid incorporating at all, despite not being against people practising whatever sexuality they consider suits them or having resources which reflect the society we live in (including Single parents, unmarried couples, LGBT couples, etc.).
I hope this won't cause any offence or be written off as a minority/ 'fundamentalist'/ extremist perspective- it is much easier to stay silent than come forward with a contentious view (and I was very tempted, I admit), which is perhaps why some of the stuff above may be news to you, but is actually mainstream in the communities of our learners.
Good night.
Khadijah
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Khadijah
----------------------------------------
“Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high.”
- Rabindranath Tagore
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