It's a massive issue isn't it? A couple of the points here are ones that
have caused a lot of debate in our staff room. Firstly, there is the
slightly ludicrous idea of equivelance which the current qualifications
framework imposes. As Frances points out, Level 2 ESOL is not
'equivelant' to a GCSE as held by a native speaker; they are not
certifying the same thing. Arguably, a GCSE in English Literature is no
more useful of evidence of L2 (Second Language) competence than any
other GCSE would be. Successfully completing any course at this level
requires the same level of language skill...? This is particularly of
concern in FE colleges, where, for example, and Entry 3 ESOL learner
might expect to progress to a Level 1 vocational course with the same
institution. Is the one preparation for the other?

Secondly, you mentioned the 'hurry' of some ESOL students. This is
especially acute once learners have achieved a breadth of understanding
which means they can cope with most daily situations, but have yet to
develop (or often become aware of) the need to understand language to
any depth. Jim Cummins (I think) did a lot of work on the time learners
can expect to take to develop language to a level required to study at
university and it was a very long time - 5 to 7 years. How often are
ESOL students presented with that fact? Would they stay the course if
so? And is it true?

Confusedly,

Matt

>>> Frances Nehme <[log in to unmask]> 02/21/08 12:26 PM >>>
A frustrating issue, but however much we would like to imagine it does,
ESOL
Level 2 does not guarantee that a speaker of other languages has the
same
language skills as a native speaker with a GCSE, in reality.
If we are honest, we really only need to consider how many native
speakers
of English would be competent to cope in the Sorbonne with nothing more
than
GCSE level French. 

IELTS does at least indicate competence to deal with what will be thrown
at
learners on their university courses - just taking the course is often
of
benefit to learners who have not attended any other non-ESOL courses in
UK.
It seems unfair that we are losing the pathway we fought so hard to
retain,
but the only solution for our students really may now be to take a GCSE
in
English Literature or Language.

This has been done successfully in the past. A programme I used to work
on
enabled ESOL learners to take GCSE / AS Level Maths as well - if they
were
up to it. The college quite liked getting the funding for that,
negotiated
in advance with the local LSC - and - of course - the good results.
We found this eased transition into university where that was what they
wanted. Some learners did, in fact, prefer to take AS and A Levels, no
matter their level of education, either as warm-ups for the rusty, or as
a
way of accessing the different curricula and ways of doing things here,
(for
those with higher quals from their country of origin).
Not everyone is in an enormous hurry, some do prefer to take their time
and
may do better as a result.

There comes a point when our learners hit the real world and are in
direct
competition with native speakers - however hard it is for us to take
losing
these interesting areas of work. There is always the chance to work
across
the curriculum and team-teach or job-share with the GCSE teachers - also
works well and breaks down some of the barriers ESOL comes up against.

I think we need to be sure of our ground and to be scrupulously honest
when
we argue for things as beneficial for our learners. If we are looking
for
funded routes to higher education for our students, these may have to
lie
outside the scope of ESOL.

Sadly,

Frances


On 21/2/08 11:39, "Matt Davis" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Interesting as well that ESOL Level 2 (which includes the National
Literacy
> Test) does not seem to be accepted by universities as proof of
> language/literacy competence, while a GCSE A to C (also Level 2)
does... for a
> native speaker anyway. Perhaps it would be if the student was overseas
and
> paying tens of thousands of pounds.
>  
> Cynically,
>  
> Matt
> 
>>>> >>> James Simpson <[log in to unmask]> 20/02/2008 12:19 >>>
> Hello all
> I'd like to support Pam's comments: students find it difficult enough
as
> it is to negotiate their way through progression routes, without
further
> barriers being placed in their paths. If anyone can stomach this
> conference, I hope they will raise this issue.
> It's interesting to compare the situation in England with that of
> Scotland. Perhaps a Scottish colleague will correct me if I'm wrong,
but
> I understand that Scottish ESOL qualifications come under the same
> framework as mainstream Scottish education, with levels called Access,
> Intermediate and Higher. I also think the ESOL Higher qualification is
> accepted as a university entrance level qualification.
> James
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pam Frame [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 20 February 2008 09:47
> To: James Simpson; [log in to unmask]: RE: DIUS
Acheiving our
> Level 3 Ambitions conference
> 
> 
> If anybody is able to attend from the ESOL community perhaps you could
> ask why the LSC has decided to cease funding of our only remaining L3
> qualification, IELTS, from next academic year thus depriving our
> learners of any progression route beyond Skills for Life to continue
to
> develop their English language skills, access HE study, enter certain
> professions etc. I think it is still OK to study a modern foreign
> language at A level with LSC funding, but not apparently ESOL.
> Unfortunately it does not look as if a NATECLA spokesperson can attend
> this conference-but we would very much like to know the answer.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ESOL-Research discussion forum and message board
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of James Simpson
> Sent: 19 February 2008 19:36
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: FW: DIUS Acheiving our Level 3 Ambiti! ons conference
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> From: Richard Bull [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Mon 18/02/2008 15:56
> To: Richard Bull
> Subject: DIUS Acheiving our Level 3 Ambitions conference
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Colleague,
> 
> 
> 
> DIUS would like to invite you to attend the "Skills for Employability:
> Achieving our Level 3 Ambitions" conference taking place in
Westminster
> on Wednesday 19th March 2008.  Please see the flyer attached.
> 
> 
> Speakers include The Rt Hon David Lammy MP, Parliamentary Under
> Secretary of State for Skills, DIUS
> 
> 
> 
> To find out more and to book a place please visit
> www.nrdc.org.uk/diuslevel3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Places are free of charge and awarded on a first come first served
> basis. Please pass this invitation on to your colleagues.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget NRDC's International Conference taking place on the 6th
and
> 7th March 2008.  Places still available, please visit
> www.nrdc.org.uk/intconf2008 <http://www.nrdc.org.uk/intconf2008
> <http://www.nrdc.org.uk! /intconf2008>
<http://www.nrdc.org.uk/intconf2008 >
> >  
> 
> 
> 
> Best regards
> 
> 
> 
> Richard Bull
> 
> Events and Marketing Manager
> 
> National Research and Development Centre for Adult Literacy and
> Numeracy, 
> 
> Centre for Longitudinal Studies and Wider Benefits of Learning
> 
> Institute of Education, University of London
> 
> Tel. No. 020 7612 6804
> 
> 
> 
> Office location
> 
> 55-59 Gordon Square
> 
> London
> 
> WC1H 0NT
> 
> 
> 
> Mailing address
> 
> 20 Bedford Way
> 
> London
> 
> WC1H 0AL
> 
> 
> 
> www.nrdc.org.uk <http://www.nrdc.org.uk/>
> 
> 
> 
> NRDC is a consortium of partners led by the Institute of Education,
> University of London
> 
> www.ioe.ac.uk <http://www.ioe.ac.uk/>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ***********************************
> ESOL-Research is a forum for researchers and practitioner! s with an
> interest in research into teaching and learning ESOL. ESO L-Research
is
> managed by James Simpson at the Centre for Language Education
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> ***********************************
> ESOL-Research is a forum for researchers and pra! ctitioners with an
interest
> in research into teaching and learning ESOL. ESOL-Research is managed
by James
> Simpson at the Centre for Language Education Research, School of
Education,
> University of Leeds.
> To join or leave ESOL-Research, visit
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/ESOL-RESEARCH.html
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> *********************************** ESOL-Research is a forum for
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> and practitioners with an interest in research into teaching and
learning
> ESOL. ESOL-Research is managed by James Simpson at the Centre for
Language
> Education Research, School of Education, University of Leeds. To join
or leave
> ESOL-Research, visit
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***********************************
ESOL-Research is a forum for researchers and practitioners with an interest in research into teaching and learning ESOL. ESOL-Research is managed by James Simpson at the Centre for Language Education Research, School of Education, University of Leeds.
To join or leave ESOL-Research, visit
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/ESOL-RESEARCH.html
A quick guide to using Jiscmail lists can be found at:
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