Welcome back from the underworld Brian! I hope that your recovery is not too
painful and that the news is good when it comes through.
Thank you for your questions... Can you tell us a story about your feel for
knowing?
What does the Old Testament insight mean in terms of secondary knowledge for
you? So for example, if you tell us a story about your feeling for knowing,
that will be secondary knowledge for us... With a primary moment of our
reading your text... Does this infer that all secondary information is not
"knowing" - what other thing is it then? (not arguing, just eager to make
this distinction). Are the checks and balances that you speak of to do with
quality in primary knowing?
Is there something in Ted's and Alan's ideas about flow between primary and
secondary knowing that we can appreciate?
Susie
On 5/2/07 8:51 PM, "Brian wakeman" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hello again,
>
> Recovering well...sleeping, painting and reading!!
>
> I thought somebody might be interested in Smitz'
> comments that I have been reading:
>
> after summarising "know" in the ancient Hebrew text he
> says,
>
> "While the Greeks were concerned with detached
> knowledge and a speculative interest in the
> metaphysical nature of things , the Old Testament
> regards knowledge as something which continually
> arises from personal encounter"
>
> (see pp392-409 Dictionary of New Testament Theology
> Ed. Colin Brown Paternoster 1976)
>
> The questions of interest to me are:
>
> 1. In what ways do I know through personal
> encounter, and how do I take account of "Feel that I
> know", and 'know as personal encounter' in my
> practitioner research?
>
> 2. and how can I build-in checks and balances to take
> standards of quality seriously?
>
> in post-operative haze!
>
>
> Brian
>
>
>
>
> --- Susan Goff <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Alan
>> I am reading the poem over, will look at the link
>> and am learning...
>> Thank you
>>
>>
>> On 2/2/07 7:42 PM, "A.D.M.Rayner"
>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Susie,
>>>
>>> Yes, that's exactly the point I was making: to
>> 'see with feeling' it is
>>> necessary to perceive the 'space', not just the
>> fixed frame perspective of
>>> the 'viewfinder' that leads to objectifiction.
>> This is the essence of
>>> inclusional experience and what enables a crowd to
>> flow by orienting with
>>> the ever transforming current (present shape of
>> space) rather than
>>> dislocated 'objects'. When we're in objective,
>> rationalistic 'see only'
>>> mode, we 'wrong foot one another' like calculating
>> machines on collision
>>> course; when we're in 'see with feeling' mode we
>> glide easily around one
>>> another. My friend Ted Lumley has written
>> extensively about this: see
>>> www.goodshare.org. And my 'how pure eyesight can
>> dislocate your knee'
>>> exercise is also intended to reveal it.
>>>
>>> Yes, we do in a sense have sixth and seventh
>> senses - those that feel
>>> invisible 'gravity' and 'warmth', but they're not
>> associated with explicit
>>> organs on the outside of our bodies (ears, eyes,
>> nose, tongue, skin) and so
>>> get taken for granted, rather than being
>> understood as vital to our
>>> inclusional 'proprioception' as Margarida Dolan
>> attests - our sense of
>>> self-location in the gravitational and thermal
>> (i.e. receptive spatial)
>>> field. They are also vital to our emotional
>> experience of the loving
>>> presence of absence, pervading all, known to some
>> as God, Holy Ghost,
>>> Brahman, Dao etc. When we know this presence, we
>> no longer believe in 'the
>>> ghost in the machine', the internal executive that
>> declares us to be
>>> independent from Nature, with our very own 'free
>> will'. Neither do we
>>> believe in determinism.
>>>
>>>
>>> The poem below is about this.
>>>
>>>
>>> As Mohsen might put it, may you enjoy the warm
>> pool of gravitational
>>> reception, where darkness is vital for our natural
>> neighbourhood!
>>>
>>>
>>> Darkest warmth of heavenly laughter in which the
>> Devil may come to care and
>>> be cared for,
>>>
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> BEYOND OBJECTIFICTION
>>>
>>> You ask me who you are
>>> To tell a story you can live your life by
>>> A tail that has some point
>>> That you can see
>>> So that you no longer
>>> Have to feel so pointless
>>> Because what you see is what you get
>>> If you don't get the meaning of my silence
>>> Because you ain't seen nothing yet
>>>
>>> You ask me for illumination
>>> To cast upon your sauce of doubt
>>> Regarding what your life is all about
>>> To find a reason for existence
>>> That separates the wrong
>>>> From righteous answer
>>> In order to cast absence out
>>> To some blue yonder
>>> Where what you see is what you get
>>> But you don't get the meaning of my darkness
>>> Because you ain't seen nothing yet
>>>
>>> You look around the desolation
>>> Of a world your mined strips bare
>>> You ask of me in desperation
>>> How on Earth am I to care?
>>> I whisper to stop telling stories
>>> In abstract words and symbols
>>> About a solid block of land out there
>>> In which you make yourself a declaration
>>> Of independence from thin air
>>> Where what you see is what you get
>>> When you don't get the meaning of my present
>> absence
>>> Because you ain't seen nothing yet
>>>
>>> You ask of me with painful yearning
>>> To resolve your conflicts born of dislocation
>>>> From the context of an other world out where
>>> Your soul can wonder freely
>>> In the presence of no heir
>>> Where what you see is what you get
>>> When you don't get the meaning of my absent
>> presence
>>> Because you ain't seen nothing yet
>>>
>>> You ask me deeply and sincerely
>>> Where on Earth can you find healing
>>> Of the yawning gap between emotion
>>> And the logic setting time apart from motion
>>> In a space caught in a trap
>>> Where what you see is what you get
>>>
>>> And in a thrice your mind is reeling
>>> Aware at last of your reflection
>>> In a place that finds connection
>>> Where your inside becomes your outside
>>> Through a lacy curtain lining
>>> Of fire, light upon the water
>>>
>>> Now your longing for solution
>>> Resides within and beyond your grasp
>>> As the solvent for your solute
>>> Dissolves the illusion of your past
>>> And present future
>>>
>>> Now your heart begins to thunder
>>> Bursting hopeful with affection
>>> Of living light for loving darkness
>>> Because you ain't felt no thing yet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Susan Goff <[log in to unmask]>
>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Sent: 01 February 2007 21:47
>>> Subject: Re: "Feel that I know"
>>>
>>>
>>>> Thanks Alan - yes understand about seeing things
>> as a whole - but I am
>>>> trying to understand something other than seeing
>> (visually or cognitively)
>>>> for a moment, more like an embodied sense of
>> "feeling" knowing - in the
>>>> moment of recognition that Jack identified.... It
>> is very hard to put
>>>> accurately into words so please forgive me.... If
>> I can dwell on this
>>> sense,
>>>> integrating it into seeing might come later. My
>> hunch is that we depend
>>> too
>>>> much on "seeing" which has the cognitive result
>> of turning everything into
>>>> an object and distancing us the observer unless
>> we make a big effort to do
>>>> otherwise. Other felt senses of knowing, like
>> feeling knowing, could mean
>>>> that we have a very different construction of
>> self and our orientation in
>>>> the organic world. Susie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 1/2/07 7:00 PM, "A.D.M.Rayner"
>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Susie and All,
>>>>>
>>>>> Welcome back into the stream, the water's
>> lovely!
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah yes! But really to feel the stream, there is
>> a need to view the
>>> picture
>>>>> as a hole.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Warmest
>>
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> Brian E. Wakeman
> Education adviser
> Dunstable
> Beds
>
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