Michael Jason Lord on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 at 9:59 AM said:-
> The
> original e-mail in this thread didn't take a side, or even
> offer opinion on the Act, but simply showed a downside to
> FOIA and was presumably intended for the purpose of discussion.
Recalling this is the data protection mailing list, that the original e-mail
in this thread was posted on this DP list (not the FOI list), asked an FOI
question and proffered the opinion that "I think the doctor has a very good
point." regarding the costs of NHS FOI requests, seems to me to have many
connotations.
Roland Perry on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 at 11:02 AM said:-
> Give it time, the independent oversight and accountability
> isn't fully in place yet....
NEW oversight and accountability measures. There will always have been some
measures, which public opinion/pressure possibly created a need to change as
they became outdated or less effective.
Tim Turner on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 at 12:01 PM said:-=
> I believe the debate is polarised - you have the media on one
> side, very suspicious of FOI and downright hostile to Data
> Protection, and you have the public sector on the other,
> accused of secrecy and conspiracy, facing new legislation
> with no certain knowledge of the costs or long-term
> implications.
Suspicion and hostility can be inherent in many approaches to what are seen
as barriers to perceived but unknown matters. The media seem merely human
in that respect.
Within the general grouping of 'media' a paradox appears to be that both FOI
and Data Protection are issues the media themselves have, in a social sense,
a significant interest in ensuring the survival of in some form.
> The public seem to me to be caught in the
> middle, and until the FOI traffic is dominated by the average
> punter and the subjects that concern them, we'll be stuck
> debating the principles.
FOI traffic is probably never going to be dominated by an average punter
(subject or citizen), it is far more likely that the media and
groups/organisations motivated to identify all the issues relating to any
particular matter on behalf of (subject or citizen) will be the most active
requestors. Although single citizens on their own may well sometimes raise
the issues initially, as freedom from subjugation and sufficient privacy to
progress issues allows.
Ian W
> -----Original Message-----
> From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection
> issues [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> Michael Jason Lord
> Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 9:59 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: FOI - a cheap research tool for journalists?
>
>
> "If you think freedom is costly, try the alternative."
>
> Hang on, in the context, we had been living with the
> alternative up until the 01/01/05 and we seemed to be okay.
> Now I'm not saying Freedom of Information isn't a good thing,
> because it clearly is, just that such a comment is completely
> meaningless in that context.
>
> I would also like to point out that while people here may
> want to get on their political high horse, or soapbox, and
> spout ideology but if you asked most taxpayers if they were
> happy that the NHS spent £19,000 of their money finding
> information so that a journalist can write a couple of
> paragraphs (or pages at best) condemning the health service
> while they or their relatives have to wait months, in some
> cases, if they need an operation I think you'd find that they
> would be livid.
>
> All good things have their downsides too and these should be
> addressed rather than ignoring them and criticising those who
> point them out. If nothing can be done without it being
> detrimental then fine but there should be debate and
> consideration not just criticism and the formation (in mind
> rather than reality) of two polar opposite sides. The
> original e-mail in this thread didn't take a side, or even
> offer opinion on the Act, but simply showed a downside to
> FOIA and was presumably intended for the purpose of discussion.
>
> Michael Lord
>
>
> >>> davidwyatt <[log in to unmask]> 06/04/2005 00:48:04 >>>
> The managers, accountants and budget controllers who make up
> a key element of any organisations management all have an
> opportunity to personally participate or commit resources to
> lobby processes as legislation is drafted. I understood that
> parliament must be given a cost declaration statement
> supporting the impacts of legislation when it is drafted
> allowing them to consider potential financial impacts to the
> economy before it is passed.
>
> In a democracy, processes exist for everyone to 'have their
> say' but its up to individuals to make use of them, whether
> its as a manager wearing his/her commercial hat where the
> narrow financial cost view dominates, or as the man
> in the street where he/she enjoys the freedom to air a view. If you
> support democracy then you have to actively fight to win and
> retain it. . Like privacy shouting after its gone costs you
> more than the narrow financial aspect. Any legislative change
> generates costs but its being able to identify the benefiits
> which counts.
>
> It appears rather naive of those who manage the purse strings
> of an organisation to suddenly decide to raise questions on
> the financial costs after legislation goes live. As dear
> Delia said 'Where are you' - 'Lets be 'aving you' - but at
> legislative lobby stages please.
>
> David Wyatt
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [data-protection] FOI - a cheap research tool
> for journalists?
>
>
> > Well said. It's just a shame you weren't talking about the
> government of
> > this country.
> > Informed free consent is a luxury not afforded to us. The really
> useful
> > information, such as why the AG changed his mind on the legality of
> the
> > Iraq war,
> > or how the intelligence changed from "patchy" to "solid" in
> the blink
> of
> > an
> > eye, will never be divulged. A majority of citizens do not
> understand the
> > implications of freedom, nor do they realise the implications of
> giving up
> > hard-won
> > freedoms for a little temporary security. Two cheers for democracy!
> >
> > Ian B
> >
> > ------------
> >
> > In a message dated 05/04/05 09:56:19 GMT Daylight Time,
> > [log in to unmask] writes:
> >
> >> A government that is responsive and accountable to its citizens is
> a
> >> cornerstone of democracy. To be able to give our free consent to a
> >> government, we must be informed and have the ability to inform
> ourselves
> >> as to what the government is doing in our names and with
> our money.
> >> Therefore, a freedom o
> f information act is needed so that we as
> citizens,
> >> not subjects, can exercise our informed consent. To the
> extent that
> we
> >> lack information and cannot find out information, we lose our
> ability to
> >> give our free consent. As we lose that ability, we lose
> our ability
> to
> >> function as citizens and become subjects.
> >>
> >> The government intended the act to make government, and its
> organisation
> >> including the NHS, to be open and accountable. The act intends to
> shift
> >> the balance between the individual and the state towards the
> individual
> >> by
> >> making the state more accountable to the people.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Ian Buckland
> > Managing Director
> > Keep IT Legal Ltd
> >
> > Please Note: The information given above does not replace or negate
> the
> > need
> > for proper legal advice and/or representation. It is essential that
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> > not
> > rely upon any advice given without contacting your
> solicitor. If you
> need
> > further explanation of any points raised please contact Keep I.T.
> Legal
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> >
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