Tim Trent on Monday, March 21, 2005 at 1:24 PM said:-
> Imperfect assumption, Ed. I said below: "Enforce it,
> certainly with good
> use of discretion, and publicly attributable discretion when
> necessary". Nowhere have I said "rigidly".
I do agree that the DPA does need enforcing properly, but your comment that
great consistency is necessary does not equate. Following that argument
through the situation with speed cameras, and the prosecution of all
speeders would be a consistent and beneficial outcome because of the many
deaths allegedly caused by speeding.
Recalling a debate about putting automated digital speed cameras across all
three lanes of the A1 and the specification of the computer system and
printers required to cope with the expected demand, has similar
connotations. That certainly would have been logically consistent and
driven by similar arguments to those put forward. Sounds somewhat like
watering weed killer over the whole of the garden to me, but as with many
things a single narrowly focused answer does not provide a full answer.
Ian W
> -----Original Message-----
> From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection
> issues [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tim Trent
> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 1:24 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Interview notes
>
>
> Imperfect assumption, Ed. I said below: "Enforce it,
> certainly with good
> use of discretion, and publicly attributable discretion when
> necessary". Nowhere have I said "rigidly".
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ed Smith [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 21 March 2005 13:03
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [data-protection] Interview notes
>
> So, on this basis we scrap all law that is not "properly", I
> assume this means rigidly, enforced - for example not enough
> people to enforce it - because it is bad law? Not much hope
> for the Criminal code then, but hey we won't have any "bad"
> laws. Sorry. I know its not Friday yet, but ...
>
> Ed
>
> >>> Tim Trent <[log in to unmask]> 21/03/2005 12:20:00
> >>>
> My contention is that bad law is worse than no law at all.
>
> The law that we have, while imperfect, is plenty good enough
> as law goes. It is made into bad law by lack of enforcement.
> And thus one of two things should happen.
>
> Enforce it, certainly with good use of discretion, and
> publicly attributable discretion when necessary
>
> Or
>
> Scrap it.
>
> I do not actually argue that we should scrap it. I argue
> that it is being enforced so badly that it is currently
> tending towards being worthless.
>
> We, here, are "the good guys". We work hard for our
> organisations and for our clients to ensure that the law of
> the land is upheld and that good ethics produce good trading
> conditions. Watching less well prepared organisations drive
> a coach and horses through the law sickens me.
>
> I run regular DP training courses. "Who in the audience
> knows if their organisation has a Privacy Officer?" I often
> ask. I get blank looks. "Who knows what to do when they get
> a privacy question?" Blank looks. "Who knows whom to ask?"
> Blank looks. But you can bet your life that their employers
> nave made their notifications.
>
> The blank looks? Usually three quarters of the audience,
> even in 2005.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection
> issues [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> Lewis, Chris G.
> Sent: 21 March 2005 12:10
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [data-protection] Interview notes
>
> All fair enough Tim, but the fact remains that it is better
> to have an IC who acts against some offenders rather than
> just scrap the whole thing and have nothing, which seemed to
> be your preference.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection
> issues [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tim Trent
> Sent: 21 March 2005 12:08
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [data-protection] Interview notes
>
> But the authorities have firm evidence against both. And the
> probability of a successful prosecution is equally great in
> both cases. What now? Both have been caught. Only one is
> prosecuted. The other is told how good it is that they have
> stopped, currently.
>
> The one who stopped abusing was of the Ian Brady/Myra Hyndley
> class of evil abuser. The one who is prosecuted happened to
> do it once, allegedly with kindness (ok, I know) and was
> caught in the act.
>
> I am not having a personal argument with you here, Chris. I
> am simply developing thinking in the way this group does.
> But you know that, I think.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lewis, Chris G. [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 21 March 2005 11:58
> To: Tim Trent; [log in to unmask]
> Subject: RE: [data-protection] Interview notes
>
> To use your example, it is better that only one of the
> paedophiles is caught than neither.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection
> issues [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tim Trent
> Sent: 21 March 2005 11:56
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [data-protection] Interview notes
>
> Let us make this more extreme, then
>
> We have the Sexual Offences Act 2003. In part it legislates
> against sexual acts with a minor child in a more effectuve
> manner than prior legislation. It is clear law, though some
> lawyers would argue that parts of it are badly drawn.
>
> Would you accept that a paedophile who has stopped abusing
> minor children (and I mean 10 minutes ago though there is
> excellent evidence to show that he or she had been doing so
> during the past hour) should not be prosecuted but that one
> who was caught in the act should be?
>
> I am a firm believer in using extreme examples to show what
> should and should not be done. They crystalise thought far
> better than anything else. And matters sexual are the most
> extreme one can usually phrase.
>
> My perception is that the UKIC needs to use more extreme
> examples in his thinking over who should and who should not
> be prosectured. I am, as ever, happy to have this perception
> corrected
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection
> issues [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> Lewis, Chris G.
> Sent: 21 March 2005 11:45
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [data-protection] Interview notes
>
> This is certainly true. However, an unevenly applied law is
> surely better than no law at all, in this instance.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection
> issues [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tim Trent
> Sent: 21 March 2005 11:44
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [data-protection] Interview notes
>
> The point you make about even handed and equable application
> of the law is also my primary point
>
> The UKIC failed to act against Cahoot with a prima facie
> breach of the law "because they had shut the stable door
> after the horse had bolted". The UKIC acted against a
> Rochdale solicitor for the simple offence of failing to
> notify. One might make the point that the silly man HAD
> notified prior to the court case!
>
> So even handed and equable it was not. Consistent it was not.
>
> Might one suggest it was "soft target, so let's make an
> example of him?"
>
> If the UKIC is unable or unwilling to prosecute properly then
> something is astray, surely, with his handling of his brief
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ian Welton [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 21 March 2005 11:36
> To: 'Tim Trent'; [log in to unmask]
> Subject: RE: Interview notes
>
> Tim Trent on Monday, March 21, 2005 at 10:06 AM said:-
>
> > Precisely.
> >
> > So is it not about time that our regulator started to regulate?
> >
> > Unenforced law is bad law. While one can argue that enforced laws
> are
>
> > by no means all good laws, one can at least see that the law is
> being
> > upheld.
> >
> > If the UKIC's office and the UKIC will not enforce and uphold the
> law
> > then the law should go. There is, of course, an alternative
> position
> > here. But we have so far had several regulators who seem not to be
> > overly concerned with enforcement.
>
> Clearly DP is an area where the regulators have to consider
> matters carefully in order to ensure the law is applied
> equally to all.
>
> Take part V of the Police Act 1997 as an example with similar
> connotations. The basic structure of the processes for the
> CRB are prejudicial against anybody who moves their residence
> around the country/world regularly creating a responsively
> unfair environment for them where
> employment/recruitment/contract requirements make short
> timescales necessary. This is because each police force they
> have resided in is required to respond with the results of a
> check. The different response times between a person who has
> lived in one area and one who has lived in 20 areas creates a
> systematic prejudice. Unless of course everybody should
> always maintain an in date CRB certificate.
>
> It is probable that ensuring a similar prejudicial system
> does not emanate from the DPA means that a great degree of
> care is required when considering offences across the varied
> DP environment. What can create a puzzle is where consistency
> is not maintained or/and people do not raise any issues with
> unfair balances. Conceptually considering privacy by
> removing the political aspects at least assists in
> recognising some of the issues involved.
>
>
> Ian W
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tim Trent
> > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 10:09 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Interview notes
> >
> >
> > "Gosh, I'm sorry. I never realised they were part of an access
> > request." Which reinforces the absolute requirement for a correct
> set
> > of policies that are linked to disciplinary processes.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stuart Lynch
> > Sent: 19 March 2005 16:36
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [data-protection] Interview notes
> >
> > For a public authority and/or its employees, "unfair destruction"
> can
> > be a criminal offence, if it's done to with the intention of
> > preventing disclosure as part of a SAR response (Section 77, FOIA).
> >
> > Stuart Lynch
> > Stuart Lynch Consulting Ltd
> > 01704 870365
> > 07709 400236
> > mailto:[log in to unmask]
> > www.stuartlynchconsult.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tim Trent
> > Sent: 18 March 2005 13:42
> > To: Stuart Lynch Consulting
> > Subject: Re: Interview notes
> >
> > In all circumstances it behoves any organisation to have a "Data
> > retention Policy" and a "Data Deletion and Destruction policy"
> (these
> > are complementary, not opposites) and to have simple versions
> > available for public inspection. Interview notes and disciplinary
> > hearing notes should be considered for explicit mention in the
> > policies
> >
> > In this way no accusations of "unfair destruction" may be made
> unless
> > there are breaches of those policies.
> >
> > Such policies should, of course, be a part of the HR Code
> of Conduct
> > and breaches should be subject to disciplinary action up to and
> > including summary dismissal for a grave offence.
> >
> > I often end up drafting these. It never ceases to surprise me how
> > often they are absent.
> >
> >
> > Tim Trent - Consultant
> > Direct: +44(0)1344 392644 Mobile:+44(0)7710 126618
> > email: [log in to unmask]
> > Marketing Improvement Limited, Abbey House, Grenville Place,
> > Bracknell, United Kingdom, RG12 1BP
> > http://www.marketingimprovement.com
> >
> >
> >
> > This message is for the intended addressee's use only. It may
> contain
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> > confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any
> > mis-transmission. If you receive this message in error, please
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> > indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of
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> > message if you are not the intended recipient. Any views expressed
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> > this message are those of the individual sender, except where the
> > message states otherwise and the sender is authorised to state them
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>
> > be the views of any such entity.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Broom, Doreen
> > Sent: 18 March 2005 13:12
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [data-protection] Interview notes
> >
> > Yes, so be careful what you write.
> > D
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> > > [SMTP:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Doug Colyer
> > > Sent: 18 March 2005 10:30
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Interview notes
> > >
> > > Dear all
> > >
> > > I am certain that this subject has been previously
> discussed but I
> > > cannot
> > find the emails. So if you all don't mind being patient with me,
> could
>
> > you confirm if in your opinion within the context of a selection
> > interview (as for a job), can the interviewee ask to see the notes
> > made by the interviewing panel when they were interviewing him/her
> for
>
> > the job ?
> > >
> > >
> > > Douglas Colyer
> > >
> > >
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