You see? I knew we agreed!
Oh, by "Irrelevant" I mean and "should therefore be deleted forthwith in
accordance with the organisation's Data Deletion and Destruction policy". A
policy which almost never exists!
An excellent example. And larger than life!
-----Original Message-----
From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ian Welton
Sent: 16 May 2005 10:41
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [data-protection] Accuracy of records - 'Gone Away'
Tim Trent on 16 May 2005 at 08:56 said:-
> If the purpose is simply "marketing purposes" then a gone away is
> irrelevant.
If marketing purposes create irrelevancy then why would the data in question
be held?
> If it is some form of contractual matter that data is exempt anyway
> (probably).
At least where the assignee has agreed and the agreement is legally valid,
something which DPO's very rarely question, as contracts can frequently be
assumed to have originally been constructed after a legal fashion and hence
reflect legality and fairness to the data subject(s) therefore making them
DP compliant. A sort of DP risk management which could end up entirely
negating many of the DPA purposes.
> If it is some other (unspecified) purpose where address history is
> germane to the processing then it is Personal Data and may be held if
> it is marked "prior address", or else the record is incorrect and not
> held lawfully.
There is no disagreement that all the principles require very careful
consideration to determine the accuracy of such a statement with regard to
the original purpose(s) of collection for any particular part of a data set.
> I may have a large body, but most of it is made up of food.
> I rarely wend my way round Nottingham, though :)
As I understand it that is scientifically untrue as water forms the greater
part of any persons body, but as an example it was more literally accurate
than intended then. :)
Ian W
> -----Original Message-----
> From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tim Trent
> Sent: 16 May 2005 08:56
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Accuracy of records - 'Gone Away'
>
>
> We return to the purpose of processing.
>
> If the purpose is simply "marketing purposes" then a gone away is
> irrelevant.
>
> If it is some form of contractual matter that data is exempt anyway
> (probably).
>
> If it is some other (unspecified) purpose where address history is
> germane to the processing then it is Personal Data and may be held if
> it is marked "prior address", or else the record is incorrect and not
> held lawfully.
>
> I may have a large body, but most of it is made up of food.
> I rarely wend my way round Nottingham, though :) -----Original
> Message-----
> From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ian Welton
> Sent: 14 May 2005 15:36
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [data-protection] Accuracy of records - 'Gone Away'
>
> Tim Trent on 13 May 2005 at 17:53 said:-
>
> > And that part is the point, Ian, and I am grateful to you. People
> > appear to be discussing this emotionally and with regard to what
> > people might do, as opposed to the definition of the data.
>
> We appear to agree about the importance of properly interpreting and
> implementing the DPA definitions.
>
> Although the comment "and with regard to what people might do" seems
> at odds with the DPA 1998 legal requirements to determine "purpose"
> when "processing" personal data, requiring as they do prior
> consideration of what people might 'do' with personal data, and
> ensuring "appropriate" security measures restrict use and availability
> for the identified purpose(s).
>
> In DPA terms many of the strictly logical extensions have seemed to
> illustrate more of a purposeless based approach, possibly reflective
> of the difficulties inherent in simply and humanely handling purposes.
>
> > A name with an address that is not valid is not data that,
> of itself,
> > can identify a living individual. Ergo it is no longer
> subject to the
> > DPA 1998.
>
> If a name together with an invalid address could not be considered
> personal data it would be illogical for so many organisations to go to
> such great lengths in recording, maintaining and holding invalid
> addresses. Those organisations would not be so careful in their
> processing of what, following some arguments, would be invalid data,
> unless their intentions provide a purpose for those data holdings,
> like linking to living individuals, in which case the invalid address
> data would seem to become personal data rather than a sort of
> uncontrolled data.
>
> Equally where an invalidity may arise because of a mistake within a
> living individuals record, that data would still be considered
> personal data under the DPA, otherwise there would be no need to
> provide that data in any s.7 response.
>
> Consider a name like "Mr large body of water wending its way around
> Nottingham". If that is thought to be invalid as a name, then it is
> not personal data, unless it is likely that any data controller has or
> could obtain any necessary information to relate that data to a living
> individual(s).
>
> It would seem that the mere intention to consider which living
> individual an invalid name or address could relate to would make what
> was considered an invalid name or address personal data being
> processed for some purpose and subject to any applicable
> ethical/moral/legal considerations, and that any lack of intention
> merely defines a different set of constraining purpose(s), or raises
> the question of any need for that data collection to exist.
>
>
> Ian W
>
> This e-mail and its contents are provided for the purposes of
> furthering knowledge about privacy and data protection and
> should not be used or processed for any other purposes.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tim Trent
> > Sent: 13 May 2005 17:53
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Accuracy of records - 'Gone Away'
> >
> >
> > And that part is the point, Ian, and I am grateful to you. People
> > appear to be discussing this emotionally and with regard to what
> > people might do, as opposed to the definition of the data.
> >
> > A name with an address that is not valid is not data that,
> of itself,
> > can identify a living individual. Ergo it is no longer
> subject to the
> > DPA 1998.
> >
> > That does not remove any duty of care we may have over
> removing that
> > record from the database properly
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ian Welton
> > Sent: 13 May 2005 15:52
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [data-protection] Accuracy of records - 'Gone Away'
> >
> > Chris Brogan on 13 May 2005 at 15:42 said:-
> >
> > > I cannot agree with you. Just because the person has left
> > the address
> > > they havent ceased to exist.
> >
> > The debate seems to revolve around "any data in the
> possession of or
> > likely to come into the possession of the data controller"
> when linked
> > to the "data controller" definition.
> >
> > If it is likely or possible that the data subject can be
> identified by
> > the data controller, the data remains personal data.
> >
> > Ian W
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Brogan
> > > Sent: 13 May 2005 15:42
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: Accuracy of records - 'Gone Away'
> > >
> > >
> > > Tim,
> > > I cannot agree with you. Just because the person has left
> > the address
> > > they havent ceased to exist. If he owes you money you are
> probably
> > > going to track him down. The information you hold on him
> > will help you
> > > to do so. It is big business tracking down "Gone Aways".
> Credit Card
> > > Companies, Mail Order Companies etc spend a fortune on it. The
> > > credit agencies have dedicated `databases to assist in locating
> > > "Gone Aways". The information Commissioner issued a code
> of practice
> > > many years ago dealing with the functions of Tracing
> Agencies. The
> > > Information Commissioner has actively targeted agencies
> that track
> > > down absconders because of the methods that they use. An
> absconder
> > > was once located because the agent knew he had a dog
> called Spikins.
> > > There are numerous cases of a similar nature.
> > >
> > > Chris Brogan
> > > www.securitysi.com
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > > From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection
> > issues on
> > > behalf of Tim Trent
> > > Sent: Fri 13/05/2005 15:15
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: Accuracy of records - 'Gone Away'
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I disagree.
> > >
> > > Tim Trent at "Old address, old company" or "Old house, Old
> > Street, Old
> > > Town", is not sufficient data, even with other data
> > reasonably held,
> > > to identify a living individual. It identifies what is now a non
> > > existent individual. You are wise to counsel caution, of
> > course, but
> > > this record cannot identify Tim Trent.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Roland Perry
> > > Sent: 13 May 2005 14:40
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: [data-protection] Accuracy of records - 'Gone Away'
> > >
> > > In message
> > > <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAh8IWNoVXQESwWr
> > > gvRgp6R8KAA
> > > [log in to unmask]>,
> > > at 13:54:23 on Fri, 13 May 2005, Tim Trent
> > > <[log in to unmask]> writes
> > > >Someone who is a "gone away" is precisely that and the
> > record is no
> > > >longer capable of identifying a living individual
> > >
> > > You might not have their current address, but there will
> be enough
> > > information to *identify* the person. Don't confuse
> > identifying them
> > > with being able to locate them this week.
> > > --
> > > Roland Perry
> > >
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