St John,
I was not returning to the original debate. i was simply stating that
prejudice in general should be challenged. I was most emphatically not
accusing you of any additional -ist behaviour. All I was originally
doing was saying that I did not feel comfy with sexist statements.
But language and words are important. They reflect our thoughts. And
while you have the right to free speech, we all also have the right to
dispute statements.
However, I was not making a personal attack on your beliefs. I was
saying that I did not like one statement. I did not comment on your
overall moral values, about which I know nothing.
Personal, emotional attacks should not form part of public lists (or
private correspondence too).
And as it is Friday: if I come to Bedford will you cook my supper? Oh,
and I buy the Big Issue regularly.
have a nice weekend everyone and I am away next week so won't be able to
continue this "lively debate"!!!
Claire
On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 12:41:53 +0100 COLETTE EATON
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Well said
>
>
> >>> "Skeates,St.John DEAL Awards Tm" <[log in to unmask]> 04/26/02 12:38pm >>>
> Hmmm - so now by implication I'm racist and disabilist (?) too?
>
> OK - I was quite happy to let this one die since I was out of the office
> on Wednesday and only caught up on the furore yesterday. However since it
> refuses to go away I think it's only fair that I have the right to reply.
> This will, however be my last comment on the subject. And boy am I p*ssed
> off!
>
> It has been suggested that I apologise and make a commitment to keep my
> sexist comments to myself. I will do neither. To do so would be the
> height of hypocrisy. In fact I will go further and suggest that it is I
> who deserve the apology from those who have derided me as sexist on the
> basis of a single sentence. How dare you label me without knowing me or
> my values and beliefs. To do so simply exposes your own despicable
> prejudice and complete lack of tolerance for anyone who may hold
> different views to your own.
>
> If anyone was genuinely offended by my comment, rather than seeking to
> opportunistically jump on the politically correct band wagon, come up to
> Bedford and I will show you something to get offended about. I, like so
> many others on this list I'm sure, live in a town steeped in poverty,
> homelessness, violence, racial hatred, religious intolerance, and abuse.
> Yet what really offends you? Words! If that really is the limit of your
> social conscience, it's high time you took a walk in the real world
> rather than dispensing your holier-than-thou missives in the mistaken
> belief that it will somehow atone for your cosy middle class values.
> You'd do more good by going and buying a copy of The Big Issue.
>
> I don't believe in sexual equality. I don't believe in racial equality.
> In fact I don't believe in any form of exclusionist equality who's prime
> concern is to fight it's own corner, safely blinkered from any other
> issues that may confuse things and paint the world as anything other than
> black and white, right and wrong. I believe in equality - pure and
> simple. I don't care if you are disabled, black, homosexual, Muslim,
> homeless or whatever. All I care about is if you are getting a raw deal
> from our so called caring society. The minute you fight for one set of
> rights at the expense of another, you are no better than those you look
> down on with such relish.
>
> And there can be no right more fundamental than that of free speech! Even
> if I were the worlds greatest bigot, my right to express my views should
> be paramount, as is your right to refute them. You may debate with me but
> you may not silence me. You may disagree with me but you may not
> patronise me. You may despise me but you may not label me. So no, I will
> not keep my comments to myself irrespective of how they may be
> interpreted by the petty minded and intolerant.
>
> Finally let's consider the specifics of the comment that has caused so
> much moral outrage. I'm sure Ms Minogue is a wonderful, free thinking,
> independent woman who would no more be tethered to a cooker than I would
> sit though an entire episode of Michael Barrymore's My Kind of People.
> However, she (or her record label if you want to be cynical) has chosen
> to use her sexuality as a means of self promotion and therefore, I
> assume, accepts the attitudes which it will inevitably evoke. Had I made
> the comment about a work colleague, you would have every right to be
> outraged. I didn't. I made it about an image, an icon, a phantom even and
> a self-created one at that. In fact my quip simply goes to prove the
> success with which Ms Minogue has reinvented herself over the last 5
> years and I'm not sure she would thank you for leaping to her defence.
>
> OK I'm done. As I said it was my intention to let sleeping dogs lie but
> certain remarks made that quite impossible as far as I am concerned. And
> yes I do have better things to do - tilting at windmills is not one of
> them.
>
> Happy Friday everyone :)
>
> St.John Skeates
> Individual
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: claire wickham [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 11:03 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]; Skeates,St.John DEAL Awards Tm
> Subject: Re: Sexism
>
>
>
>
> Sexism, racism and disabilism and all forms of prejudice should always
> be challenged. This is how awareness is raised and how our voices are
> heard.
>
> Claire
>
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 10:53:03 +0100 "C.Florin" <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > I have to agree with Steve here. How do you find the time to have
> these chats?! More to the point, is this the right place to have them?
> > It does clogg up people's mail boxes.
> >
> > Carol
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 24 Apr 2002 15:25:28
> > +0100 Stephen Russell <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > Isn't there some work you lot should be doing?
> > > Steve
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Margaret Herrington
> [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 3:14 PM
> > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > Subject: Re: Sexism
> > > >
> > > > Not easy to accept apologies,especially the claim that they are
> > > > unreserved, when couched in such a form.
> > > > The expression...'stop digging' springs to mind.
> > > > Margaret
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >>> [log in to unmask] 04/24/02 02:54pm >>>
> > > > Hi
> > > >
> > > > First off: if there is anyone on the list who felt personally hurt
> by my
> > > > comments, please accept my unreserved apologies.
> > > >
> > > > Next: review the thread.
> > > >
> > > > St John's comments were sexist - he is quite honest enough not to
> deny
> > > > that.
> > > >
> > > > My response was intended to be an amusing response with a tag
> > > > acknowledging its sexist nature (and rebuking it - why else put it
> in?).
> > > > My assumption was that the thread would end there. I should have
> > > > guessed, however, that one or two would be only too happy to leap
> into
> > > > the political fray.
> > > >
> > > > Claire's email, turning the scenario on its head was an excellent
> one
> > > > (and very witty) - I wish I'd thought of it first.
> > > >
> > > > I won't bother commenting on Margaret's 'I agree' (sagely nodding
> dog)
> > > > emails.
> > > >
> > > > Rob's email seems to suggest that I believe sexism is generally
> > > > acceptable and that I brand those who disagree as 'killjoys'. He's
> > > > obviously confusing me with someone else. However, I do feel it's
> > > > important to keep at least one foot in the real world - and am
> happy to
> > > > say that I am not yet totally institutionalised.
> > > >
> > > > Along with many others on this list, I encounter disabled people in
> > > > difficult circumstances every day. I frequently use humour as a
> means of
> > > > developing rapports with those I meet, and as a defence against the
> sort
> > > > of experiences and pressures that often accompany the job that I
> do.
> > > >
> > > > At UCW, I worked very successfully as the only male in a team of
> ten. I
> > > > can assure you that my colleagues shared my sense of humour and
> have
> > > > never ever suggested that my behaviour was in any way sexist (and
> they
> > > > are quite sufficiently aware and quite confident enough to have
> 'put me
> > > > right' had I stepped out of line).
> > > >
> > > > Equality and respect for others is vital - though it's important,
> too,
> > > > to maintain a sense of perspective.
> > > >
> > > > Finally: I'm certainly far from perfect (and wouldn't want to be)
> but
> > > > neither am I sexist - and I really don't need a lecture (a pious
> and
> > > > rather simplistic one at that) from a political opportunist on the
> > > > issues of gender and equal opportunities.
> > > >
> > > > Sorry to sound so harsh (and still not particularly repentant).
> Perhaps
> > > > it is I who needs to get out more!
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Peter
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > fidlerob wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I find it rather strange that people who advocate equal
> opportunities
> > > > > for students with disabilities cannot transfer their
> understanding
> > > > > into the area of gender equality.
> > > > > The comments made are based on a stereotype that women
> > > > > should be beautiful and tied to the kitchen sink. Would anyone
> > > > > dare transfer a similar stereotype to the area of disability; for
> > > > > example that disabled people are unfortunate and we should all
> feel
> > > > > sorry for them and pat them on the head when they try and say
> > > > > something. I think there would be uproar, and quite right too.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's one thing to make a discriminatory comment and regret it,
> but
> > > > > another to revel in it or pass it off as a bit of fun. I don't
> think
> > > > > branding those who complain about sexism as killjoys is
> > > > > acceptable.
> > > > > Perhaps an apology and a commitment to keep your sexism to
> > > > > yourself would be more appropriate.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rob Fidler (dyslexia support - Roehampton)
> > > > >
> > > > > On 23 Apr 2002, at 18:20, Peter Hill wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>Hi
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Guilty. Though, I'm afraid, not particularly repentant.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Regards
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Peter Hill
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Margaret Herrington wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>well said Claire!!
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>Margaret
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> >>> [log in to unmask] 04/23/02 04:41pm >>>
> > > > >>>In an ideal world you would both be at home preparing someone's
> dinner
> > > > >>>and not allowed to send out sexist e-messages!!
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>Claire
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:37:48 +0100 Peter Hill
> <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > >>>wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> > Hi
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > Skeates,St.John DEAL Awards Tm wrote:
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > > In an idea world ...
> > > > >>> > > Kylie Minogue would be at home right now preparing my
> dinner.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > Wrong again, St John. In an ideal world, she'd be at home
> preparing
> > > > >>>mine!
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > (Tut, tut - sexist banter!)
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > Regards
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > Peter Hill
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > --
> > > > >>> > 01527 500324
> > > > >>> > [log in to unmask]
> > > > >>> > www.study-pro.com <http://www.study-pro.com/> <
> > > > <http://www.study-pro.com/>>
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > Dyslexia Consultancy and Resources
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>----------------------
> > > > >>>Claire Wickham
> > > > >>>Director: Access Unit - Short Courses and Outreach
> > > > >>>University of Bristol
> > > > >>>Union Building
> > > > >>>Queen's Road
> > > > >>>Clifton
> > > > >>>Bristol BS8 1LN
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>Tel: 0117 954 5710
> > > > >>>Textphone: 0117 954 5715
> > > > >>>Fax: 0117 954 5714
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>[log in to unmask]
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>--
> > > > >>01527 500324
> > > > >>[log in to unmask]
> > > > >> www.study-pro.com <http://www.study-pro.com/>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Dyslexia Consultancy and Resources
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > 01527 500324
> > > > [log in to unmask]
> > > > www.study-pro.com <http://www.study-pro.com/>
> > > >
> > > > Dyslexia Consultancy and Resources
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> **********************************************************************
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> >
> > ----------------------
> > Carol Florin, Disability Co-ordinator, Mental Health
> > University of Hull
> > Disability Services
> > 2 Ferens Avenue
> > HULL
> > 01482 466833
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
>
> ----------------------
> Claire Wickham
> Director: Access Unit - Short Courses and Outreach
> University of Bristol
> Union Building
> Queen's Road
> Clifton
> Bristol BS8 1LN
>
> Tel: 0117 954 5710
> Textphone: 0117 954 5715
> Fax: 0117 954 5714
>
> [log in to unmask]
>
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----------------------
Claire Wickham
Director: Access Unit - Short Courses and Outreach
University of Bristol
Union Building
Queen's Road
Clifton
Bristol BS8 1LN
Tel: 0117 954 5710
Textphone: 0117 954 5715
Fax: 0117 954 5714
[log in to unmask]
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