A couple of points:
Access to the needs assessment report is convenient for administrative reasons. The trainer can check whether the specification recommended has been delivered, or if there are items missing, even be in a position to note whether the assessor's recommendations are coherent technically, which sometimes either by accident or ignorance they are not. (This may not be a popular task but it is an essential part of any five star assessment system, and why ideally, there should be constructive working relations between the trainer and the needs assessor.) Conversely, if the assessor has made any key recommendations around training, these too can be noted. However, except in exceptional or sensitive circumstances, a competent professional trainer doesn't need to know anything much more The consequences of the student's disability will unfold in the detail in relation to the particular tasks that the student is aiming to undertake. The trainer will in general, spend significantly more time with a student than will the assessor. To be able to handle the contingent nature of that work is partly what the trainer is paid their consultancy fee for.
This may seem either an obvious or obscure thing to say but the place of conversation cannot be underestimated at any point in our work. And, this is not as straightforward as it seems. The degree to which what passes for 'normal' human discourse is aimed to circumvent an exchange of views is overwhelming. One has to work quite hard to establish the terms according to which a truth can be heard, especially when much of the time, we want somebody to be saying something completely different, so that we can either agree with it or shoot it down.
We pay for this hardness of hearing with a great deal of additional work, over work, which is literally very, very boring. However, conversely, a softening of hearing can yield very precise information that enables intractable problems to be work on and sometimes even worked through to a satisfactory conclusion.
Regards,
Penny
-----Original Message-----
From: Discussion list for disabled students and their support staff. on behalf of alex larg
Sent: Mon 26/03/2007 22:55
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc:
Subject: Re: AT Trainiing -- was Computer suppliers
In my opinion,
> One of the things that suppliers have been asking for for some time is
> to be included in the disclosure agreements on the form that DSA
> students sign. In order to give the best service it is hugely useful if
> we know, for example, that a student can't be expected to lift anything.
No one really needs to know what an individual needs specifically to help
them if policies, practices and procedures really are in place. If an
accessible service is offered by suppliers (and Universities) then it is
pretty irrelevant what their needs assessment says. From a suppliers
perspective all the supplier need do is advise assessors what is suitable to
run the assistive technology that they are recommending. Just supply good
quality, reliable kit which is backed by an on-site no quibble guarantee.
Provide good and appropriate training and then sit back and wait for the
phones not to ring with issues but with orders!? - and lets provide kit and
support to ALL students and not just D/disabled ones - this reduces the
stigma of being dis-abled. I have encountered numerous times D/disabled
students saying to me that their mates tease them about them receiving a
free computer - another indirect discrimination and burden on top of all the
others.
Another concern is about the QAG DSA requirement for an on-line
quoting system is that it reduces the need for communication which is so
important. It also increases suppliers' costs because they have to design an
accessible and perhaps even semi-intelligent web interface which has to take
into account the complexity of VAT issues. As we know these VAT issues are
dictated by local Customs and Excise offices with varying interpretation of
guidelines across the country. My experience here is that so many students
have underspecified machines. This has come up on the assessors list too.
This may be another reason why suppliers are having to deal with the student
for so long.
That differing interpretation of guidelines thing sounds familiar as
something that has impacted on disabled students in the past!?! If memory
serves... Only certain (low) spec machines for dyslexic students as it is
only classified as a minor disability. Does any one remember those days?
Anyway this variation (in VAT rules) doesn't make for a level playing field
for suppliers and perhaps the ones with more clout and more resources are
able to negotiate more conducive arrangements than the smaller companies.
Also the QAG requirement for (some and eventually all) suppliers to pay for
its (QAGs) existence also adds to the costs incurred by suppliers. Are these
additional costs really not actually passed on to the end users, i.e. the
students, as inevitably happens in any market place? And doesn't this make
it harder and harder for the smaller and also the more specialist companies
to survive and trade. Then what inevitably happens is survival of the
biggest and then a lack of choice and back to reduction in quality.
I often refer to the approach taken by Tescos which is checkout staff should
ask everyone presenting at the checkout "Do you need any help with your
packing." Obviously our clients' situations are more complex than this, but
the fundamental principles are the same.
I guess everyone has stopped reading by now...
Alex
Alex Larg
[log in to unmask]
07931 561 877 or 07916 175 077
Freelance Assistive Technology Trainer
Freelance study needs assessor
Former Disability Officer
On 26/3/07 21:14, "Ian Litterick" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
> AT Trainers similarly should be included, perhaps separately, on the
> disclosure form. A preliminary read of the Needs Assessment report helps
> trainers prepare in the knowledge of the students strengths and
> weaknesses, and, where a conscientious assessor has been able to take
> advantage of good communications with the HEI, a knowledge of the course
> of study and the type of work.
>
> This would then improve the quality of the preassessment which our
> trainers need to carry out at the beginning of the training to work out
> what approaches they need to best meet the training needs of the
> student, in the ways that Penny suggests.
>
> However, even with the system working at its best, no-one will have a
> very good idea at the beginning of year 1, which is when AT training
> should ideally take place, what the student's work will be at the end of
> year 4.
>
> Study Support tutors are more likely to be involved throughout a
> student's course. SO it is even more important that they should be
> conversant with the AT, so that they can integrate it with their support
> work. Which is why we pitch some of our AT training, seminars and CPD
> precisely at study support tutors.
>
> Regards
> Ian Litterick
> Suppliers' Rep on QAG
> Executive Chairman
> www.iansyst.co.uk
> www.dyslexic.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion list for disabled students and their support staff.
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Penny Georgiou
> Sent: 25 March 2007 20:49
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [DIS-FORUM] Computer suppliers
>
> Dear John,
>
> The question around training is not so much how the supply is organised,
> which can be multifarious, but about the detail of training received.
> There are radical transformations of students attitudes to their
> capacity for effective study when their technology training is
> contextualised in terms of strategies with which to approach the
> different tasks that they have to complete. Even where training is a
> 'sincere' demonstration of the software, it may not 'take', or be
> retained beyond the session. Frequently, the information will not be
> subjectivised by the student, if it is not very clearly and precisely
> linked to study tasks in the detail.
>
> This is particularly true in relation to particular conditions. Eg,
> where there are issues directly related to anxiety or SpLD, students
> frequently need repetition and for the same idea to be approached from
> several angles before it can be grasped in a way that is likely to be
> remembered. Contextualisation will aid memory and retention here too.
>
> Students often need to take notes for themselves and so be able to take
> on the process of learning actively in relation to their training. This
> process will depend on the transference to the trainer. Hence, someone
> who may 'know his onions' technically, may not necessarily be able to
> transmit their knowledge in a way that the student can grasp for
> themselves. Hence, although there are many capable and competent people,
> they may not necessarily be effective trainers. This can be assisted to
> some degree by the development of a training curriculum. However, the
> capacity to teach is also a gift and we should not underestimate this
> component in relation to assistive technology training.
>
> Regards,
>
> PG
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion list for disabled students and their support staff. on
> behalf of E.A. Draffan
> Sent: Sun 25/03/2007 17:35
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: Computer suppliers
>
>
>
> What you say John is backed by comments from many students in
> the survey we
> completed. We have also been trying to hold focus groups with
> students to
> discuss the issues. Where they have taken place I have fed back
> the
> information to the student services department that held the
> focus group.
>
> There is a split as to how students receive support - in their
> homes from
> outside trainers sometimes linked to suppliers or specialist
> training
> companies or training on the campus in an AT suite or at an
> assessment
> centre.
>
> Those who take up the training, often say they benefit from the
> experience
> but would like additional support in the way of handouts, audio
> files,
> video, FAQs, Just in time or drop in time for queries that
> arise. Most
> importantly many wanted to be trained using their own work
> materials so that
> it all connects to their day to day study skills rather than
> just being
> shown the devices or software. Some were also grateful to be
> able to train
> on their own computers, so that these can be set up in a way
> that suits
> their learning preferences.
>
>
> Best Wishes E.A.
>
> Mrs E.A. Draffan
> Assistive Technologist
> Mobile: 07976 289103
> http://www.emptech.info/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion list for disabled students and their support
> staff.
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Conway
> Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 4:48 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Computer suppliers
>
> Can anyone comment on the training side? Assessors recommend
> training, but
> how is it provided? Does the student have to chase up once the
> equipment
> arrives? Is the trainer alerted by assessor or supplier? Is
> the supplier
> also the training provider??? Does the assessor follow up to see
> if
> equipment and training has been provided?
>
> I am surveying some 150 DSA holders at present but they've just
> gone home
> for Easter - all replies so far have implicated issues with
> training on the
> software
>
> John
>
>
> Dr John S Conway
> Principal Lecturer /Disability Officer / Chair, Research
> Committee Royal
> Agricultural college, Cirencester, Glos GL7 6JS
> 01285 652531 fax 01285 650219
> http://www.rac.ac.uk/?_id=590
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion list for disabled students and their support
> staff. on
> behalf of Nasser
> Sent: Sun 3/25/2007 11:06
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Computer suppliers
>
> Alex
>
> I am glad to hear everything you have said is exactly what I
> would like to
> hear from every Do/Assessor/Trainer which is to engage with the
> suppliers to
> improve their services. You have demonstrated that by actively
> helping and
> training you have managed to turned them into an excellent
> company and
> therefore more of the same would help others achieve the same
> goals as those
> of Avantek.
>
> I would also expect that other suppliers have had a similar
> relationship
> with their Assessment centres/Trainers to develop such a quality
> system
> otherwise it would be unthinkable that these suppliers would be
> getting any
> referrals from these centres and thus would find it hard to
> survive in the
> industry.
>
> I would expect by you gathering of the information and feeding
> it back would
> greatly help the suppliers who may have failed to fulfil parts
> of their
> responsibility for the good of the students. Maybe in your own
> way you will
> help to accelerate the process of raising the standards within
> this
> industry.
>
> I have no doubt QAG and Suppliers and all stake holders will
> support and
> applaud you in this mission.
>
> If you feel there are areas of improvement in my operation I
> would be
> grateful for your feedback.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Nasser Siabi
> Managing Director
> Microlink PC (UK) Ltd
> Direct: 02380 240 316
> Mobile: 07870603128
>
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential
> and intended
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> SO53 4DP
> (Company number: 3325643)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion list for disabled students and their support
> staff.
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of alex larg
> Sent: 24 March 2007 23:13
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Computer suppliers
>
> Nasser,
>
>
> As an independent freelance professional I have a policy of
> trying to be
> completely open and above board about my Business. I intend to,
> and try very
> hard to, maintain my integrity so that when I work with (student
> or other)
> clients, AT suppliers, LEAs, Assessment Centres and
> Universities, they know
> that they can trust my professional, independent and
> uninfluenced opinion.
> I buy my own equipment with nothing supplied by companies which
> may make me
> feel obliged to use them as a supplier. I have my own
> professional insurance
> and I want to maintain my freelance status with the Inland
> Revenue.
>
> "...Much sooner than this..." I have only been an independent
> stakeholder
> for about two and a half years and now I am in a much stronger
> position to
> campaign for students' rights since I don't have ties or line
> management. I
> answer to myself and my clients. (and if I didn't like their
> feedback I
> could put it in the bin I guess - but I don't - I listen and try
> and
> improve.)
>
> I have worked with and advised a number of suppliers over the 10
> years that
> I have been in the business of advocating the rights of disabled
> students. I
> have worked with Tony Lees at Avantek and helped his company
> develop
> feedback forms, helped him to train professional trainers and
> also provided
> disability awareness training for him and his company employees.
>
> I personally feel that Avantek are an excellent supplier, who
> answer the
> phone when you ring, who provide goods within a reasonable
> timescale and
> who provide excellent follow up support if something goes wrong
> with a
> machine supplied by them. I have seen from experience that their
> support is
> prompt, sympathetic but not patronizing, fast, and on-site,
> which for a
> disabled student is essential in my opinion. I am not saying
> Avantek is
> perfect and we all have room for improvement, but I have
> provided a lot of
> training for students who have been supplied with Avantek
> computers and this
> is how I have this knowledge of Avantek's service provision. I
> am also sure
> that some other companies out there do the same good work, again
> from
> experience and client feedback.
>
> However it is not my view but the students' views here that
> count surely. I
> don't want to make assumptions and that is why I am seeking to
> gather
> evidence which is relevant to disabled students' experiences in
> HE of DSA
> and specifically in this case computer equipment supplied to
> them. Of course
> this does and should extend to training. But as an independent
> trainer
> working across the board with different suppliers machines, I
> feel well
> placed to gather this evidence. People are writing to me off
> list, I have my
> own personal experiences with numerous students over the years
> and I have
> numerous friends and colleagues out there who are disability
> officers
> (overworked and under-resourced) who often have to help pick up
> the pieces
> with D/disabled students. (Again dis-forum members and
> associates please
> let me know of your experiences and your students' experiences
> and support
> me if you feel it is appropriate off or preferably on list. A -
> me too -
> will do.)
>
> I may be reinventing the wheel (my version is round by the way)
> but I am
> doing this free of charge. I am trying to be open and above
> board and I am
> willing to listen to what is said and to keep an open mind.
>
> The Walt Disney philosophy is that:-
>
> Rule 1 - the customer is always right.
> Rule 2 - if the customer is wrong then see Rule 1.
>
> That doesn't seem like a Mickey Mouse idea to me - it seems like
> forward
> thinking and the best possible approach, especially when
> (disabled - social
> model) customers are virtually forced to use this premium
> service in a
> "cartel" type set up.
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> Alex
>
> Alex Larg
>
> [log in to unmask]
> 07931 561 877 or 07916 175 077
> Freelance Assistive Technology Trainer
> Freelance study needs assessor
> Former Disability Officer
>
>
> On 24/3/07 11:42, "Nasser Siabi" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Tony
>>
>> Don't panic mate, he is saying you are one of the good guys, I
> say this
>> because I know Alex is one old timers of this industry and he
> knows all
>> the play makers and if he had any issues with your company or
> mine or
>> Ian's he would have proactively contacted us to inform and
> resolve the
>> problems much sooner than this. He does not strike me as being
> a type of
>> person to want to wait for things to sort themselves out and
> he would
>> rather make sure the student welfare came first and naturally
> he would
>> kick some rear ends to make sure this happens immediately.
>>
>> So, I think if you have not heard or spoken to Alex before on
> major
>> issues then you are not the type of supplier he is talking
> about. Would
>> that be a good assumption Alex?
>>
>> best wishes
>>
>> Nasser
>>
>> Tony Lees wrote:
>>
>>> Whilst I am grateful to Alex for mentioning Avantek alongside
> such
>>> illustrious company I am sure he did not mean to suggest that
> Avantek are
> the
>>> sort of supplier that would provide our student clients with
> less than
>>> adequate machines, support, training or service. We are
> justifiably proud
> of
>>> and continually strive to maintain our consistent record of
> excellent
> service
>>> - see www.avantek.co.uk/dsa.
>>> (rant over).
>>>
>>> Regards, Tony
>>>
>>> Avantek are the First DSA-QAG Quality Assured, Accredited
> Supplier.
>>>
>>> Tony Lees
>>> Avantek Computer Limited
>>> Computer Systems and Solutions; hand crafted by artisans for
> the
> discerning
>>> client.
>>> St Peter's Road
>>> Arnesby, Leics, LE8 5WJ
>>> tel: 0116 247 8515
>>> fax: 0116 247 8843
>>>
>>> http://www.avantek.co.uk
>>>
>>> e-mail disclaimer: http://www.avantek.co.uk/e_disc.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Discussion list for disabled students and their
> support
>>>> staff. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of alex
> larg
>>>> Sent: 22 March 2007 14:12
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Computer suppliers
>>>>
>>>> Dear Colleagues
>>>>
>>>> I have worked as an AT Trainer, assessor and Disability
>>>> Officer for around 10 years now. Over that time I have
> worked
>>>> with hundreds of students and some of them seem to have been
>>>> supplied with unsuitable computer hardware.
>>>> This may be due to assessors not recommending appropriate
>>>> kit: we all make mistakes - I have made and learnt from many
>>>> myself, but this is not my concern here.
>>>>
>>>> It may, however, be due to the suppliers not providing
>>>> adequate machines and/or not providing good and accessible
>>>> follow up support to their clients.
>>>>
>>>> DSA-QAG has been set up, at virtually no cost I believe,
>>>> to... Well I'm not sure what for, but the point is they have
>>>> introduced a service level agreement (SLA) for suppliers who
>>>> also have to pay for the privilege of supplying equipment as
>>>> a percentage of their turnover. (I'm sure I will be kindly
>>>> corrected for my incorrect facts within this paragraph by
>>>> colleagues.)
>>>>
>>>> My point, when I eventually get there, is that DSA-QAG SLA,
>>>> is dentally challenged, i.e. there is/are no teeth, or at
>>>> least none that I am able to find. (see above.)
>>>>
>>>> What I would ask of you is to ask your colleagues and
>>>> students for their feedback of experiences with suppliers
>>>> such as Microlink, Iansyst, Avantek and other DSA suppliers
>>>> as I wish to collate some information for evidence to take
> to
>>>> DSA- QAG / DfES, as I fear from my experience some students
>>>> may be receiving a less that satisfactory service.
>>>>
>>>> Of course positive feedback is welcome, but I have to be
> more
>>>> concerned with the less satisfactory side of the service
> too.
>>>>
>>>> I am sending this message cross-forum, and so apologies for
>>>> those receiving this a number of times.
>>>>
>>>> I also ask Nasser at Microlink, in his position as
>>>> representative for suppliers and tier discussion group, to
>>>> circulate this message on their list.
>>>>
>>>> Please pass this onto any other appropriate lists so we can
>>>> obtain as wide feedback as possible. I am in the process of
>>>> rejoining NADP (if they will have me) and so this has not
>>>> gone to that list. Maybe someone at NADP could pass it on if
>>>> that is deemed appropriate.
>>>>
>>>> I know that suppliers generally ask clients for feedback,
> but
>>>> I feel that system may be slightly compromised and I don't
>>>> know whether that information is published anywhere.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Please contact me off-list with your replies.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for you time.
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>> Alex
>>>>
>>>> Alex Larg
>>>> Freelance Assistive Technology Trainer
>>>> Freelance study needs assessor
>>>> Former Disability Officer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent using the Microsoft Entourage 2004 for Mac Test Drive.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>
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