Ian,
I apologise that I have the facts wrong here, although I don't fully
understand the difference!?!
My point was about communication and I am sorry if I did not communicate
that clearly.
I am also sorry that whilst doing my independent training sessions I seem to
have to deal with so many issues of incorrect installation, missing
components or software, poor running / slow machines, reported lack of
telephone support from the supplier, and general shoddy and poor service.
Certainly not a premium service. And this impinges on the student's training
time and my time where I have to contact LEAs to sort it out.
I am compiling a list of these experiences and will use this as evidence.
QAG are welcome to my findings, but I fear they may not be interested and
may not listen. I do intend to contact Karen at QAG though to arrange to
meet as invited.
Ian, for your peace of mind, I don't recall ever doing any training on a
machine supplied by Iansyst. Perhaps we should meet to try and remedy this
situation!?!
Thanks,
Alex
Alex Larg
[log in to unmask]
07931 561 877 or 07916 175 077
Freelance Assistive Technology Trainer
Freelance study needs assessor
Former Disability Officer
On 27/3/07 10:48, "Ian Litterick" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> A small correction:
>
> The SLA does not say that suppliers have to have an on-line quoting
> system, which, as you say, could be too onerous for the smaller company.
> We **do** have to publish on our web sites our prices for equipment that
> is commonly supplied, which some have done via their quoting system. QAG
> has just clarified that it wants a clear, listable, easily referred to
> price list, whether this is part of a quoting system or not.
>
> Regards
> Ian Litterick
> QAG Supplier Rep
> Executive Chairman
> www.iansyst.co.uk
> www.dyslexic.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion list for disabled students and their support staff.
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of alex larg
> Sent: 26 March 2007 22:56
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [DIS-FORUM] AT Trainiing -- was Computer suppliers
>
> In my opinion,
>
>> One of the things that suppliers have been asking for for some time is
>
>> to be included in the disclosure agreements on the form that DSA
>> students sign. In order to give the best service it is hugely useful
>> if we know, for example, that a student can't be expected to lift
> anything.
>
> No one really needs to know what an individual needs specifically to
> help them if policies, practices and procedures really are in place. If
> an accessible service is offered by suppliers (and Universities) then it
> is pretty irrelevant what their needs assessment says. From a suppliers
> perspective all the supplier need do is advise assessors what is
> suitable to run the assistive technology that they are recommending.
> Just supply good quality, reliable kit which is backed by an on-site no
> quibble guarantee.
> Provide good and appropriate training and then sit back and wait for the
> phones not to ring with issues but with orders!? - and lets provide kit
> and support to ALL students and not just D/disabled ones - this reduces
> the stigma of being dis-abled. I have encountered numerous times
> D/disabled students saying to me that their mates tease them about them
> receiving a free computer - another indirect discrimination and burden
> on top of all the others.
>
> Another concern is about the QAG DSA requirement for an on-line quoting
> system is that it reduces the need for communication which is so
> important. It also increases suppliers' costs because they have to
> design an accessible and perhaps even semi-intelligent web interface
> which has to take into account the complexity of VAT issues. As we know
> these VAT issues are dictated by local Customs and Excise offices with
> varying interpretation of guidelines across the country. My experience
> here is that so many students have underspecified machines. This has
> come up on the assessors list too.
> This may be another reason why suppliers are having to deal with the
> student for so long.
>
> That differing interpretation of guidelines thing sounds familiar as
> something that has impacted on disabled students in the past!?! If
> memory serves... Only certain (low) spec machines for dyslexic students
> as it is only classified as a minor disability. Does any one remember
> those days?
>
> Anyway this variation (in VAT rules) doesn't make for a level playing
> field for suppliers and perhaps the ones with more clout and more
> resources are able to negotiate more conducive arrangements than the
> smaller companies.
> Also the QAG requirement for (some and eventually all) suppliers to pay
> for its (QAGs) existence also adds to the costs incurred by suppliers.
> Are these additional costs really not actually passed on to the end
> users, i.e. the students, as inevitably happens in any market place? And
> doesn't this make it harder and harder for the smaller and also the more
> specialist companies to survive and trade. Then what inevitably happens
> is survival of the biggest and then a lack of choice and back to
> reduction in quality.
>
> I often refer to the approach taken by Tescos which is checkout staff
> should ask everyone presenting at the checkout "Do you need any help
> with your packing." Obviously our clients' situations are more complex
> than this, but the fundamental principles are the same.
>
> I guess everyone has stopped reading by now...
>
> Alex
>
> Alex Larg
>
> [log in to unmask]
> 07931 561 877 or 07916 175 077
> Freelance Assistive Technology Trainer
> Freelance study needs assessor
> Former Disability Officer
>
>
>
> On 26/3/07 21:14, "Ian Litterick" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> AT Trainers similarly should be included, perhaps separately, on the
>> disclosure form. A preliminary read of the Needs Assessment report
>> helps trainers prepare in the knowledge of the students strengths and
>> weaknesses, and, where a conscientious assessor has been able to take
>> advantage of good communications with the HEI, a knowledge of the
>> course of study and the type of work.
>>
>> This would then improve the quality of the preassessment which our
>> trainers need to carry out at the beginning of the training to work
>> out what approaches they need to best meet the training needs of the
>> student, in the ways that Penny suggests.
>>
>> However, even with the system working at its best, no-one will have a
>> very good idea at the beginning of year 1, which is when AT training
>> should ideally take place, what the student's work will be at the end
>> of year 4.
>>
>> Study Support tutors are more likely to be involved throughout a
>> student's course. SO it is even more important that they should be
>> conversant with the AT, so that they can integrate it with their
>> support work. Which is why we pitch some of our AT training, seminars
>> and CPD precisely at study support tutors.
>>
>> Regards
>> Ian Litterick
>> Suppliers' Rep on QAG
>> Executive Chairman
>> www.iansyst.co.uk
>> www.dyslexic.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Discussion list for disabled students and their support staff.
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Penny Georgiou
>> Sent: 25 March 2007 20:49
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [DIS-FORUM] Computer suppliers
>>
>> Dear John,
>>
>> The question around training is not so much how the supply is
>> organised, which can be multifarious, but about the detail of training
> received.
>> There are radical transformations of students attitudes to their
>> capacity for effective study when their technology training is
>> contextualised in terms of strategies with which to approach the
>> different tasks that they have to complete. Even where training is a
>> 'sincere' demonstration of the software, it may not 'take', or be
>> retained beyond the session. Frequently, the information will not be
>> subjectivised by the student, if it is not very clearly and precisely
>> linked to study tasks in the detail.
>>
>> This is particularly true in relation to particular conditions. Eg,
>> where there are issues directly related to anxiety or SpLD, students
>> frequently need repetition and for the same idea to be approached from
>
>> several angles before it can be grasped in a way that is likely to be
>> remembered. Contextualisation will aid memory and retention here too.
>>
>> Students often need to take notes for themselves and so be able to
>> take on the process of learning actively in relation to their
>> training. This process will depend on the transference to the trainer.
>
>> Hence, someone who may 'know his onions' technically, may not
>> necessarily be able to transmit their knowledge in a way that the
>> student can grasp for themselves. Hence, although there are many
>> capable and competent people, they may not necessarily be effective
>> trainers. This can be assisted to some degree by the development of a
>> training curriculum. However, the capacity to teach is also a gift and
>
>> we should not underestimate this component in relation to assistive
> technology training.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> PG
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Discussion list for disabled students and their support staff.
>> on behalf of E.A. Draffan
>> Sent: Sun 25/03/2007 17:35
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Cc:
>> Subject: Re: Computer suppliers
>>
>>
>>
>> What you say John is backed by comments from many students in the
>> survey we
>> completed. We have also been trying to hold focus groups with
>> students to
>> discuss the issues. Where they have taken place I have fed back the
>> information to the student services department that held the focus
>> group.
>>
>> There is a split as to how students receive support - in their homes
>> from outside trainers sometimes linked to suppliers or specialist
>> training companies or training on the campus in an AT suite or at an
>> assessment centre.
>>
>> Those who take up the training, often say they benefit from the
>> experience but would like additional support in the way of handouts,
>> audio files, video, FAQs, Just in time or drop in time for queries
>> that arise. Most importantly many wanted to be trained using their
>> own work materials so that it all connects to their day to day study
>> skills rather than just being shown the devices or software. Some were
>
>> also grateful to be able to train on their own computers, so that
>> these can be set up in a way that suits their learning preferences.
>>
>>
>> Best Wishes E.A.
>>
>> Mrs E.A. Draffan
>> Assistive Technologist
>> Mobile: 07976 289103
>> http://www.emptech.info/
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Discussion list for disabled students and their support staff.
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Conway
>> Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 4:48 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Computer suppliers
>>
>> Can anyone comment on the training side? Assessors recommend
>> training, but
>> how is it provided? Does the student have to chase up once the
>> equipment arrives? Is the trainer alerted by assessor or supplier?
>> Is the supplier also the training provider??? Does the assessor follow
>
>> up to see if equipment and training has been provided?
>>
>> I am surveying some 150 DSA holders at present but they've just gone
>> home for Easter - all replies so far have implicated issues with
>> training on the software
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> Dr John S Conway
>> Principal Lecturer /Disability Officer / Chair, Research Committee
>> Royal Agricultural college, Cirencester, Glos GL7 6JS
>> 01285 652531 fax 01285 650219
>> http://www.rac.ac.uk/?_id=590
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Discussion list for disabled students and their support staff.
>> on behalf of Nasser
>> Sent: Sun 3/25/2007 11:06
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Computer suppliers
>>
>> Alex
>>
>> I am glad to hear everything you have said is exactly what I would
>> like to hear from every Do/Assessor/Trainer which is to engage with
>> the suppliers to improve their services. You have demonstrated that by
>
>> actively helping and training you have managed to turned them into an
>> excellent company and therefore more of the same would help others
>> achieve the same goals as those of Avantek.
>>
>> I would also expect that other suppliers have had a similar
>> relationship with their Assessment centres/Trainers to develop such a
>> quality system otherwise it would be unthinkable that these suppliers
>> would be getting any referrals from these centres and thus would find
>> it hard to survive in the industry.
>>
>> I would expect by you gathering of the information and feeding it back
>
>> would greatly help the suppliers who may have failed to fulfil parts
>> of their responsibility for the good of the students. Maybe in your
>> own way you will help to accelerate the process of raising the
>> standards within this industry.
>>
>> I have no doubt QAG and Suppliers and all stake holders will support
>> and applaud you in this mission.
>>
>> If you feel there are areas of improvement in my operation I would be
>> grateful for your feedback.
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>> Nasser Siabi
>> Managing Director
>> Microlink PC (UK) Ltd
>> Direct: 02380 240 316
>> Mobile: 07870603128
>>
>> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
>> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
>> are addressed.
>> If you receive this e-mail by mistake, please advise the sender
>> immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software. Also
>> destroy and delete the message from your computer. Please note that
>> any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the
>> author and do not necessarily represent those of Microlink. Finally,
>> the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the
>> presence of viruses. Microlink accepts no liability for any damage
>> caused by any virus transmitted by this email. Any modification of the
>
>> contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited unless expressly
>> authorised by the sender.
>> Microlink House, Brickfield Lane, Chandlers Ford, Southampton
>> SO53 4DP
>> (Company number: 3325643)
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Discussion list for disabled students and their support staff.
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of alex larg
>> Sent: 24 March 2007 23:13
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Computer suppliers
>>
>> Nasser,
>>
>>
>> As an independent freelance professional I have a policy of trying to
>
>> be completely open and above board about my Business. I intend to, and
>
>> try very hard to, maintain my integrity so that when I work with
>> (student or other) clients, AT suppliers, LEAs, Assessment Centres and
>
>> Universities, they know that they can trust my professional,
>> independent and uninfluenced opinion.
>> I buy my own equipment with nothing supplied by companies which may
>> make me feel obliged to use them as a supplier. I have my own
>> professional insurance and I want to maintain my freelance status with
>
>> the Inland Revenue.
>>
>> "...Much sooner than this..." I have only been an independent
>> stakeholder for about two and a half years and now I am in a much
>> stronger position to campaign for students' rights since I don't have
>> ties or line management. I answer to myself and my clients. (and if I
>> didn't like their feedback I could put it in the bin I guess - but I
>> don't - I listen and try and
>> improve.)
>>
>> I have worked with and advised a number of suppliers over the 10 years
>
>> that I have been in the business of advocating the rights of disabled
>> students. I have worked with Tony Lees at Avantek and helped his
>> company develop feedback forms, helped him to train professional
>> trainers and also provided disability awareness training for him and
>> his company employees.
>>
>> I personally feel that Avantek are an excellent supplier, who answer
>> the phone when you ring, who provide goods within a reasonable
>> timescale and who provide excellent follow up support if something
>> goes wrong with a machine supplied by them. I have seen from
>> experience that their support is prompt, sympathetic but not
>> patronizing, fast, and on-site, which for a disabled student is
>> essential in my opinion. I am not saying Avantek is perfect and we
>> all have room for improvement, but I have provided a lot of training
>> for students who have been supplied with Avantek computers and this is
>
>> how I have this knowledge of Avantek's service provision. I am also
>> sure that some other companies out there do the same good work, again
>> from experience and client feedback.
>>
>> However it is not my view but the students' views here that count
>> surely. I don't want to make assumptions and that is why I am seeking
>> to gather evidence which is relevant to disabled students' experiences
>
>> in HE of DSA and specifically in this case computer equipment supplied
>
>> to them. Of course this does and should extend to training. But as an
>
>> independent trainer working across the board with different suppliers
>> machines, I feel well placed to gather this evidence. People are
>> writing to me off list, I have my own personal experiences with
>> numerous students over the years and I have numerous friends and
>> colleagues out there who are disability officers (overworked and
>> under-resourced) who often have to help pick up the pieces with
>> D/disabled students. (Again dis-forum members and associates please
>> let me know of your experiences and your students' experiences and
>> support me if you feel it is appropriate off or preferably on list. A
>
>> - me too - will do.)
>>
>> I may be reinventing the wheel (my version is round by the way) but I
>> am doing this free of charge. I am trying to be open and above board
>> and I am willing to listen to what is said and to keep an open mind.
>>
>> The Walt Disney philosophy is that:-
>>
>> Rule 1 - the customer is always right.
>> Rule 2 - if the customer is wrong then see Rule 1.
>>
>> That doesn't seem like a Mickey Mouse idea to me - it seems like
>> forward thinking and the best possible approach, especially when
>> (disabled - social
>> model) customers are virtually forced to use this premium service in a
>
>> "cartel" type set up.
>>
>> Yours sincerely,
>>
>> Alex
>>
>> Alex Larg
>>
>> [log in to unmask]
>> 07931 561 877 or 07916 175 077
>> Freelance Assistive Technology Trainer Freelance study needs assessor
>> Former Disability Officer
>>
>>
>> On 24/3/07 11:42, "Nasser Siabi" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>> Tony
>>>
>>> Don't panic mate, he is saying you are one of the good guys, I
>> say this
>>> because I know Alex is one old timers of this industry and he
>> knows all
>>> the play makers and if he had any issues with your company or
>> mine or
>>> Ian's he would have proactively contacted us to inform and
>> resolve the
>>> problems much sooner than this. He does not strike me as being
>> a type of
>>> person to want to wait for things to sort themselves out and
>> he would
>>> rather make sure the student welfare came first and naturally
>> he would
>>> kick some rear ends to make sure this happens immediately.
>>>
>>> So, I think if you have not heard or spoken to Alex before on
>> major
>>> issues then you are not the type of supplier he is talking
>> about. Would
>>> that be a good assumption Alex?
>>>
>>> best wishes
>>>
>>> Nasser
>>>
>>> Tony Lees wrote:
>>>
>>>> Whilst I am grateful to Alex for mentioning Avantek alongside
>> such
>>>> illustrious company I am sure he did not mean to suggest that
>> Avantek are
>> the
>>>> sort of supplier that would provide our student clients with
>> less than
>>>> adequate machines, support, training or service. We are
>> justifiably proud
>> of
>>>> and continually strive to maintain our consistent record of
>> excellent
>> service
>>>> - see www.avantek.co.uk/dsa.
>>>> (rant over).
>>>>
>>>> Regards, Tony
>>>>
>>>> Avantek are the First DSA-QAG Quality Assured, Accredited
>> Supplier.
>>>>
>>>> Tony Lees
>>>> Avantek Computer Limited
>>>> Computer Systems and Solutions; hand crafted by artisans for
>> the
>> discerning
>>>> client.
>>>> St Peter's Road
>>>> Arnesby, Leics, LE8 5WJ
>>>> tel: 0116 247 8515
>>>> fax: 0116 247 8843
>>>>
>>>> http://www.avantek.co.uk
>>>>
>>>> e-mail disclaimer: http://www.avantek.co.uk/e_disc.htm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Discussion list for disabled students and their
>> support
>>>>> staff. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of alex
>> larg
>>>>> Sent: 22 March 2007 14:12
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Subject: Computer suppliers
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Colleagues
>>>>>
>>>>> I have worked as an AT Trainer, assessor and Disability Officer for
>
>>>>> around 10 years now. Over that time I have
>> worked
>>>>> with hundreds of students and some of them seem to have been
>>>>> supplied with unsuitable computer hardware.
>>>>> This may be due to assessors not recommending appropriate
>>>>> kit: we all make mistakes - I have made and learnt from many
>>>>> myself, but this is not my concern here.
>>>>>
>>>>> It may, however, be due to the suppliers not providing adequate
>>>>> machines and/or not providing good and accessible follow up support
>
>>>>> to their clients.
>>>>>
>>>>> DSA-QAG has been set up, at virtually no cost I believe, to... Well
>
>>>>> I'm not sure what for, but the point is they have introduced a
>>>>> service level agreement (SLA) for suppliers who also have to pay
>>>>> for the privilege of supplying equipment as a percentage of their
>>>>> turnover. (I'm sure I will be kindly corrected for my incorrect
>>>>> facts within this paragraph by
>>>>> colleagues.)
>>>>>
>>>>> My point, when I eventually get there, is that DSA-QAG SLA, is
>>>>> dentally challenged, i.e. there is/are no teeth, or at least none
>>>>> that I am able to find. (see above.)
>>>>>
>>>>> What I would ask of you is to ask your colleagues and students for
>>>>> their feedback of experiences with suppliers such as Microlink,
>>>>> Iansyst, Avantek and other DSA suppliers as I wish to collate some
>>>>> information for evidence to take
>> to
>>>>> DSA- QAG / DfES, as I fear from my experience some students may be
>>>>> receiving a less that satisfactory service.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course positive feedback is welcome, but I have to be
>> more
>>>>> concerned with the less satisfactory side of the service
>> too.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am sending this message cross-forum, and so apologies for those
>>>>> receiving this a number of times.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also ask Nasser at Microlink, in his position as representative
>>>>> for suppliers and tier discussion group, to circulate this message
>>>>> on their list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please pass this onto any other appropriate lists so we can obtain
>>>>> as wide feedback as possible. I am in the process of rejoining NADP
>
>>>>> (if they will have me) and so this has not gone to that list. Maybe
>
>>>>> someone at NADP could pass it on if that is deemed appropriate.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know that suppliers generally ask clients for feedback,
>> but
>>>>> I feel that system may be slightly compromised and I don't know
>>>>> whether that information is published anywhere.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Please contact me off-list with your replies.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for you time.
>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>
>>>>> Alex
>>>>>
>>>>> Alex Larg
>>>>> Freelance Assistive Technology Trainer Freelance study needs
>>>>> assessor Former Disability Officer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent using the Microsoft Entourage 2004 for Mac Test Drive.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>> Sent using the Microsoft Entourage 2004 for Mac Test Drive.
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>> Tel +44(0)1223 42 01 01; Fax +44(0)1223 42 66 44; [log in to unmask]
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> Tel +44(0)1223 42 01 01; Fax +44(0)1223 42 66 44; [log in to unmask]
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Sent using the Microsoft Entourage 2004 for Mac Test Drive.
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