Hi Eric
I have forwarded your message to the DIS-FORUM
Best wishes
Nasser Siabi
Managing Director
Microlink PC (UK) Ltd
Direct: 02380 240 316
Mobile: 07870603128
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended
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_____
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Reach Data Technologies Ltd
Sent: 27 March 2007 10:42
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: [DSAReg] FW: [DIS-FORUM] Computer suppliers
Hello Alex,
At your request to gain more feedback, also from other suppliers than the
ones who have responded so far, I thought it might be useful to write a few
lines from the perspective of possibly one of the smallest, but certainly
not least dedicated, suppliers on the DSA-SLA, the 2nd ones BTW to become
fully accredited!
We have been supplying IT equipment and training in close collaboration with
various DOs and Access Centres to numerous students over the last 10 years
(asking for help from DOs and assessors whenever we felt we could get stuck
on anything), and indeed increasingly all over the country. Never in the
last 10 years have we, however, come across any of the negative things
regarding suppliers that you mention. We also talk a lot with the student
during the equipment installation and training visit (always at the
student's own premises, trained on their own equipment, whether supplied by
us or not), and apart from complaints about the general process of how long
it all takes, there's not been any negative comments made on us as a
supplier. The length of the overall process is often down to LAs, sometimes
even the assessors themselves, as we then find out, in that assessors
sometimes take as much as 3 weeks to prepare what to us in many cases seems
like a standardised report (once we get to read the report at the student's
premises), the LAs often take much longer before they place the order or
tell the student to do so.
There are of course also many a good example of both assessors and LAs, so
please do not take my comments above as general, as indeed I am convinced
your comments are not generalised on the suppliers. But rarely do humans
praise rather than complain, let us not forget this vital wisdom of life ;-)
Talking to students, the majority of which are dyslexic, yes, it is true
that a small proportion are distressed about the whole process they have to
go through, or more precisely, it's the usually over-protective parents, we
find, that are distressed, not so much the students, who from our experience
and having discussed this with numerous students over the last 10 years, can
cope with it a lot better than their parents can. The large majority of
students and also parents are simply just very grateful that there is a
scheme available through which they can get all the equipment and training
that thet receive from suppliers like us. Most of them worry more about hte
life after university, when the protected environment of the DSA all of a
sudden stops, forcing many a student to fall back into the rather
distressing situation they were in during primary and secondary education
(if their special need had already been identified back then) of simply
withholding facts to the likes of future employers about their special needs
out of fear of not getting a job. If anything, that's where things need to
be improved IMHO.
I would agree with Nasser that it is most unhelpful for us suppliers to not
know in advance what the exact nature of a student's disability is, as we're
somtimes facing some surprises during the visit to the student, which could
have been effectively avoided had we suppliers been made "part of the
family".
Regarding the comments on "QAG (at virtually no cost I believe)" I wish this
were true. As a matter of fact the fees for financing QAG are divided
between the stakeholders, mainly the access centres and the suppliers. Once
you find yourself in the position to fund QAG as a supplier, only to then be
told you have no voting rights on the QAG committee, I think you will agree,
not only hurts, but is actually quite demotivating, as it to a certain
degree begs the question, why you are paying a fee.
Just another view from another supplier ;-)
Regards,
Dr Eric Coolen
**************************************************
Reach Data Technologies Ltd
The TechnoCentre
Puma Way
Coventry CV1 2TT
Tel: +44 (0)24 7623 6045 or 0845 0047767
Fax: +44 (0)24 7623 6046
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Ian Litterick
Sent: 26 March 2007 21:34
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [DSAReg] FW: [DIS-FORUM] Computer suppliers
FYI
Ian Litterick
Executive Chairman
www.iansyst. <http://www.iansyst.co.uk/> co.uk
www.dyslexic. <http://www.dyslexic.com> com
_____
From: Ian Litterick
Sent: 26 March 2007 20:23
To: 'Discussion list for disabled students and their support staff.'
Cc: Tim Sutton; Neil Milliken
Subject: RE: [DIS-FORUM] Computer suppliers
Hi Alex
I suppose that the partially negative reaction to your Quality
"Freelancing", arises because a number of us on this forum have put an awful
lot of work over the years into a Quality Assurance Framework which has
resulted -- after a horrendously long gestation period -- in a QAG that has
actually just started to work effectively and to start affecting the quality
of the service that DSA students receive. As it has only just started
working, from that point of view, a full review now would be probably
premature.
QAG itself, of course, arose directly from a review of the DSA process. Too
many aeons ago, in 2001, Skill: National Bureau for Students with
Disabilities carried out and reported on a survey of the DSA in HE. (I still
have a copy of the conclusions which I can send to those with an interest in
history). I presume that Skill spoke to at least some students with
disabilities, although I suspect that most of the consultation was with
professionals -- like yourself -- who were aware of failings in the then
existing system.
You say: given the chance for review that a group of "representatives"
decided that no significant change or improvement need be made. Instead what
was required was the creation of QAG (at virtually no cost I believe) to
audit the existing system.
For some of us the current system embodies significant changes and
improvements which QAG was created to monitor, and QAG is only part way
through its first round of audits to test them, and help further improve
practice. Also, those organisations who are paying for it don't regard it as
having virtually no cost. The vast majority of Skill's many recommendations
have, in fact, happened. (Not including one I notice, alas! --
"Consideration should be given as to how suppliers could be encouraged to
become approved DSA suppliers. Financial incentives may be appropriate.")
But there is no room for complacency. QAG has taken far too long and had too
many stuttering starts before it has started to become effective. We are now
nearly where we could have been three or four years ago with more favourable
winds. This thread has already produced some useful comments. I hope that
more come out of your work that can then feed back into all our quality
processes.
I do draw one conclusion already from the discussion:
Under the SLA we are obliged to have a complaints procedure, which QAG can
audit, and the SLA's complaints paragraph is mainly about resolving
disputes. So, as someone suggested, yes, it would be possible to hide
complaints (probably unwisely if you believe that truth will out). At the
end of the first round of audits the SLA will be revised in the light of
experience. I think that it would be appropriate for us to specify that our
complaints procedures should end up with QAG, in the same way that insurance
companies, solicitors, etc all tell you who to complain to if you don't get
satisfaction first. And we also need to be more specific about how the
complaints procedure is publicised. I shall suggest those changes.
Regards
Ian Litterick
Executive Chairman (and QAG Suppliers' Rep)
www.iansyst. <http://www.iansyst.co.uk/> co.uk
www.dyslexic. <http://www.dyslexic.com/> com
_____
From: Discussion list for disabled students and their support staff.
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of alex larg
Sent: 26 March 2007 02:29
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DIS-FORUM] Computer suppliers
Hi David,
I agree with you. I agree that there is a training issue. But I also suspect
that there may be a supply issue too. With certain suppliers at least.
This is why I am trying to gather evidence from students and Disability
Officers, of less than satisfactory equipment / follow up support, to
support my personal experiences.
It seems that some people are trying to discredit me before I have even
started. But I don't give up easily and the support I am receiving in the
form of off-list messages is very welcome, informative and saddening at
times due to the nature of the information. I am certainly encouraged in my
aim which is to challenge the existing system and ask why when given the
chance for review that a group of "representatives" decided that no
significant change or improvement need be made. Instead what was required
was the creation of QAG (at virtually no cost I believe) to audit the
existing system.
In my view and I suspect in the view of a significant number of students
(clients) and Disability Officers this may have been a missed opportunity.
And how many disabled students were consulted about this review? How many
D/deaf people? How many blind people? How many neurologically diverse
people? How many mobility impaired people? How many people with mental
health difficulties or Asperger's Syndrome or Autism. How many people who
need to have full time or part time carers? How many people with
disabilities not already mentioned like diabetes or epilepsy or Crohn's
Disease or M.E.? Or people with two or more of the aforementioned socially
challenging and disabling 'conditions'. I would also hope that any access
needs that these includees had were considered and taken seriously.
After all it is about their disability-related support and their Higher
education careers. I hope they were consulted. It seems only fair and
equitable to do so.
I think there is another issue as well. That of study needs assessment. I
don't mean (good) assessors, by the way, I mean the process.
You say that clients have some responsibility in the process. I agree, but
my point here is that this whole DSA application process / "solution" is
very burdensome to the clients. They have to have a diagnosis. They have to
apply for DSA from their LEA. They have to understand or at least
participate in a study needs assessment. They have to receive the report,
file the report, order the equipment recommended or imposed on them. Engage
with managing support workers, keep receipts for additional photocopying and
stuff which is allowable to claim for and then claim for it after having had
to pay for it in advance, etc. All this in the name of Bridging the Gap and
levelling the playing field. I find it a little strange that students /
clients have agreed to this after having been consulted about it.
You kindly sent me off-list the Cambridge Access Centre template for needs
assessments pointing me to the section on page 9 about the student's
responsibilities. This is a bulleted list consisting of 14 items. This is
followed on page 10, the last page, by a page of text on the importance of
taking up training on any assistive technology recommended. So on top of
this list of things that non-disabled students don't have to do comes the
news that they have to relearn how to learn.
As an independent freelance trainer, working in students' homes, on their
own equipment, I tend to start by asking if the student has a copy of their
needs assessment report that I can see, although I make my own brief
assessment as a way of breaking the ice which often works well. They do
sometimes have the report and I ask if they have read the report. More often
than not they haven't. It is just too long and inaccessible for them. They
are often dyslexic after all and reading often isn't their bag. It is
probably just as well they haven't read it as the to do list of their
responsibilities is quite long and then the news that they need to learn to
use the technology too... Is it any wonder that they don't take up the
training?
I am not criticising your centre's report template. It is excellent in terms
of current report formats in use, in my opinion.
I am commenting on the overall system.
Nasser (Microlink) wrote on Saturday afternoon,
"...It is natural that you will have more issues with the suppliers than the
rest of the service
providers such as assessors/Dos/LAs merely because the suppliers have to
deal with them for their entire course duration and as well as deal with the
aspect of their life that involves a great deal of technical support..."
It is interesting to hear a supplier's perspective on this. As a former
disability officer I thought it was the DOs who were there on-site at the
students' universities doing the casework and helping to resolve problems.
I didn't realise there was so much involvement from the supplier throughout
the student's time at university. I'd have thought that it would have been
in the supplier's business interest to ship out a well made, reliable
computer which would mean that the student need seldom contact the supplier
again.
Again I would be very interested to hear other people's views on-list,
especially those who have not contributed yet.
Thanks,
Alex
Alex Larg
[log in to unmask]
07931 561 877 or 07916 175 077
Freelance Assistive Technology Trainer
Freelance study needs assessor
Former Disability Officer
23/3/07 08:35, "David Austen" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Hello Alex
I appreciate the points you have raised and to an extent agree that there
are issues here that need addressing.
However I think you have 'hit out' in the wrong direction. I do not think
it is an equipment issue but rather a training one.
Where training is carried out by the supplier, the provision is more likely
to be taken up than when it is being provided by the Centre.
Too often the student will, for whatever reason, not have training
delivered. This obviously will lead to problems.
In some cases there are good reasons why the student should receive
training from the centre in the host institution. However and at least the
training should be carried out on the client's own equipment, not 'in
house', and carried out by someone with the necessary expertise. And let us
at least recognise that the client does have some responsibility in the
process.
This Centre does not, except for fairly rare exceptional circumstances,
offer training, but we will continue to impress on the client the
importance of the provision, continue to monitor take up and quality, and
continue to recommend only highly competent, experienced professional
trainers.
Best
David Austen
www.cambridgeaccesscentre <http://www.cambridgeaccesscentre>
<http://www.cambridgeaccesscentre>
----- Original Message ----
From: alex larg <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, 23 March, 2007 2:26:56 AM
Subject: Re: Computer suppliers
Nasser (re your message below following mine) and all,
Often disabled students, in my experience, have been through an awful lot to
get to where they are now; disbelieved, conveniently ignored, unrecognized
as neurologically different, struggling but succeeding, battling for their
rights and still not getting an accessible education. They are then
encumbered by DSA, the additional needs assessments after diagnosis,
continuing exacerbating stress (or CES), the need to consider learning new
and more productive/sustainable strategies, management of support workers
(although maybe not for much longer), confidentiality issues and additional,
well.. additional additional that non-disabled students don't have to deal
with. A level playing field?
I think some suppliers might say that students have unrealistic
expectations. I think that the students expectations are what they are and
that is fine and how it should be. The students are forced, almost, to buy a
premium service from suppliers and so they should have the best possible
service at all points along the way - pre-sale, on delivery, in training
(with a trainer of their choice) and then for the remainder of their course
If they don't get that they should be able to complain - but where can they
really go - that is my question. I am raising this on their behalf and NOT
pointing fingers - I purely mentioned three suppliers (Microlink, Iansyst
and Avantek) who I think have been audited - that's all. I know there are
other paid up (or not) DSA-QAG suppliers out there too.
I'm just raising questions, debating and trying to gather evidence for
positive service development. That is also why I requested suppliers be
informed of this in my initial message (via yourself) - to be open. I hope
nobody objects to that.
Alex
Alex Larg
[log in to unmask]
07931 561 877 or 07916 175 077
Freelance and Independent Assistive Technology Trainer
Freelance study needs assessor
Former Disability Officer
> [mailto:DIS-FORUM@ <mailto:[log in to unmask]> JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On
Behalf Of Nasser
> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 3:22 PM
>
> I will naturally be happy to send this message to the supplier's forum
> as this affects all of us. I think in gathering such information it
> would be extremely important for you to collate the data from both sides
> of the fence as I am certain every supplier will contest the version of
> the truth told by the students.
>
> I hope the purpose of this exercise is to improve the quality of the
> service and this can only be achieved by active participation of
> suppliers and having the opportunity to reply to any unpleasant
> accusations they may be facing from a dissatisfied student complaining
> to their respective assessor/LEA/DO
>
>
> Best wishes
>
> Nasser Siabi
> Managing Director
> Microlink PC (UK) Ltd
> Direct: 02380 240 316
> Mobile: 07870603128
>
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
> addressed. If you receive this e-mail by mistake, please advise the
> sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software
> Also destroy and delete the message from your computer. Please note that
> any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the
> author and do not necessarily represent those of Microlink. Finally, the
> recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence
> of viruses. Microlink accepts no liability for any damage caused by any
> virus transmitted by this email. Any modification of the contents of
> this e-mail is strictly prohibited unless expressly authorised by the
> sender.
> Microlink House, Brickfield Lane, Chandlers Ford, Southampton SO53 4DP
> (Company number: 3325643)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion list for disabled students and their support staff.
> [mailto:DIS-FORUM@ <mailto:[log in to unmask]> JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On
Behalf Of alex larg
> Sent: 22 March 2007 14:12
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Computer suppliers
>
> Dear Colleagues
>
> I have worked as an AT Trainer, assessor and Disability Officer for
> around 10 years now. Over that time I have worked with hundreds of
> students and some of them seem to have been supplied with unsuitable
> computer hardware. This may be due to assessors not recommending
> appropriate kit: we all make mistakes - I have made and learnt from many
> myself, but this is not my concern here.
>
> It may, however, be due to the suppliers not providing adequate machines
> and/or not providing good and accessible follow up support to their
> clients.
>
> DSA-QAG has been set up, at virtually no cost I believe, to... Well I'm
> not sure what for, but the point is they have introduced a service level
> agreement (SLA) for suppliers who also have to pay for the privilege of
> supplying equipment as a percentage of their turnover. (I'm sure I will
> be kindly corrected for my incorrect facts within this paragraph by
> colleagues.)
>
> My point, when I eventually get there, is that DSA-QAG SLA, is dentally
> challenged, i.e. there is/are no teeth, or at least none that I am able
> to find. (see above.)
>
> What I would ask of you is to ask your colleagues and students for their
> feedback of experiences with suppliers such as Microlink, Iansyst,
> Avantek and other DSA suppliers as I wish to collate some information
> for evidence to take to DSA- QAG / DfES, as I fear from my experience
> some students may be receiving a less that satisfactory service.
>
> Of course positive feedback is welcome, but I have to be more concerned
> with the less satisfactory side of the service too.
>
> I am sending this message cross-forum, and so apologies for those
> receiving this a number of times.
>
> I also ask Nasser at Microlink, in his position as representative for
> suppliers and tier discussion group, to circulate this message on their
> list.
>
> Please pass this onto any other appropriate lists so we can obtain as
> wide feedback as possible. I am in the process of rejoining NADP (if
> they will have me) and so this has not gone to that list. Maybe someone
> at NADP could pass it on if that is deemed appropriate.
>
> I know that suppliers generally ask clients for feedback, but I feel
> that system may be slightly compromised and I don't know whether that
> information is published anywhere.
>
>
> Please contact me off-list with your replies.
>
> Thanks for you time.
> Best wishes,
>
> Alex
>
> Alex Larg
> Freelance Assistive Technology Trainer
> Freelance study needs assessor
> Former Disability Officer
>
>
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