Clearly one cannot exist without the other, and therefore views from all
sides become equally valid, until one side becomes cute enough, or strong
enough to determine otherwise.
Data protection within that context will generally be caught in the middle.
Unfortunately being caught between is not simple when one of the primary
objectives is to protect individuals and their data from inappropriate
actions being taken by a data controller. (Inappropriate should be measured
from the data subject’s perspective)
When the data controller is a very large organisation or social grouping,
those inappropriate actions do obviously include any excessive collection
and processing of data, notwithstanding patriotism or national security.
As Tim intimated in his post, the difference in many ways may be seen
superficially as the words used, but an interpretation placed upon the same
words by different people can lead to dramatically different outcomes, and
leads to pragmatism being used as a means of trying to gain acceptance of
something which is considered to be in error.
The article in the Independent would have been more suitable for a Friday,
but was interesting from the perspective of the location of the new ANPR
being at the Hendon Data Centre, useful for financial and security purposes
as relevant communications and security already exists for the historical
PNC, the links to other systems and the biometric database for fingerprints.
Cheaper and easier having them all under one roof.
Ian W
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 3:24 PM
To: Ian Welton
Cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [data-protection] And what is the UKIC's stance here??
Mr. Welton is correct that I failed to mention that all states rely upon
national security. However, that was the unstated warrant connecting the
claim and evidence within my argument. I note that Aristotle in the
Politics says we first come together for life (security) and then continue
to live together for the good life. Even Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations,
accepted that national security was a prerequisite for a successful market.
As I stated, the question is not security or technology, but the reasons
why we have security or the intent behind security. Thus it is a question
of the public good that the technology serves. I would argue that national
security arrangements within a liberal democracy are there to protect the
citizen whereas national security in other regimes are there to protect the
state. However, all social contract theories argue that the state is
necessary to protect the individual. In other words, the question is
whether we want to revert back to the prepolitical world suggested by Hobbes
without the state? His argument is that the citizen is before the state
whereas Aristotle was arguing that the state was before the citizen. (None
of the above is to accept Hobbes' argument that such a pre-political state
exists or existed, but to state that Hobbes views shaped and continue to
shape our relationship with the state.)
Finally, the FOIA, the DPA, and the RIPA all have national security
exemptions. However, they, like all exemptions within the acts, are open to
review. Therefore, the decision of the state can be reviewed and may, in
some cases, be overturned. The claim of national security is not absolute
in a philosophical sense. (Yes, I realize that it is an absolute exemption
under the FOI). In liberal democracies there are procedures and processes
for reviewing state action and the individual citizen, especially within the
United States, has recourse to those methods. As they say in the United
States, it is a government of the people, for the people and by the people.
Moreover, the 10th amendment states that any powers not reserved to the
government are retained by the people. Unfortunately, or fortunately
depending on one's political allegiances, the United Kingdom is ruled by the
government of her majesty. In other words, the US is a democratic republic
while the UK is a constitutional monarchy.
Cordially,
Lawrence Serewicz
Lawrence W. Serewicz
Scrutiny Manager
Management Support Unit
Wear Valley District Council
01388-761-985
Ian Welton <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
<[log in to unmask]>
22/12/2005 13:21
Please respond to Ian Welton
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: Re: [data-protection] And what is the UKIC's
stance here??
Lawrence Serewicz on 22 December 2005 at 10:32 said:-
> I would not worry about the Orwellian world too much because
> it is already with us. .............................
> With all of this surveillance, street crime will continue.
> With all of
> this surveillance, benefit fraud will continue.
> We need not worry about the technology, we need to worry
> about the people,
> like you and me, who operate the machines and to what ends.
You fail to mention the necessary social control mechanisms every state
requires in some form, and how their effectiveness can be enhanced
tremendously by surviellance. Perhaps it is those issues which present
the
greatest problems as they are generally most often unrecognised and can
deny
even the protections you raise.
Happy Xmas
Ian W
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