In message <003d01c41da1$f7b4add0$2c3468d5@ntlworld>, ianwelton
<[log in to unmask]> writes
>Roland Perry on 08 April 2004 at 02:11 said:-
>
>> They see that criminals have *more* to hide. And it's that
>> balance of power that makes them agree to the ID checks. Just
>> as everyone (well almost everyone) is happy to have their
>> bags x-rayed at the airport.
>
>A difficulty in accepting that approach is defining criminal - something
>legislative bodies everywhere practice for various reasons more or less
>daily and yet they do fail to differentiate white collar crime from 'real'
>crime.
Americans have a concept of "anti-social" behaviour that they wish to
discourage. Sometimes this is also illegal behaviour, sometimes it's a
trigger to make relatively trivial things illegal.
For example, it's illegal to play a walkman on the local metro bus, but
merely anti-social (and might get you thrown off as in breach of
contract) on a private tour bus.
My theory is that most Americans welcome the opportunity that an ID card
gives, to discourage anti-social behaviour as well as illegal behaviour.
>Are you saying use of the ID is restricted to legitimate, state enabled
>purposes in line with the US constitution or DP type principles?
Depends on the situation. An airline can say: "I won't fly you unless
you produce ID" simply as a matter of enforcing its terms and conditions
on fare-evasion (eg transferring non-transferrable tickets).
Or the State can say: "I won't let you into the airport unless you show
ID", as part of the anti-terrorism Patriot Act (or whatever).
In *both* cases, however, there are hopefully (albeit weak) privacy laws
that might stop the people checking you ID from gathering more
information than they absolutely need.
>Given the strongly market orientated US culture I find it difficult to
>comprehend large companies not accessing material held on or within an ID
>card for their purposes.
You can only access information that is held on the card. Why do you
think there's anything useful to be gathered? Some people have suggested
things like "medical records" should be stored on them, but in practice
this isn't done.
>From the picture you elucidate either US society has given up its strongly
>individualistic culture sustained by a vigorously protected constitution
>without a whimper and (even more difficult to understand!) any media
>coverage or film.
The media are the ones stoking the very fear and doubt that makes the
citizens want to have State controls of almost everything!
There's an old saying that "freedom of speech does not extend to
shouting FIRE in a crowded theatre". The same is true of other
constitutional protections. The list of practical exceptions that the
American public are happy to go along with just grows and grows.
>Roland Perry on 08 April 2004 at 13:13 said:-
>
>> The passport office has coped with this, and I'm not sure
>> anyone has suggested that the ID card needs to be more
>> authoritative than a passport. Of course, if it *is* to be an
>> entitlement card, then it makes sense to check things like
>> lifetime NI contributions against the claimed identity. This
>> and other similar checks might help ensure there's only one
>> person "using" each identity.
>
>Authoritarianism is not the only issue, with passports being external and ID
>internal, there seems to be an indication of a distinct difference in
>revenue maintenance costs. Something which is proposed to be in daily use
>for a variety of purposes is more likely to be lost/stolen than an item
>which is amongst large portions of the population only used occasionally.
Over the weekend it has emerged that the ID card is to be based on the
Passport, and that (once fully rolled out) it will be required to gain
access to NHS and other benefits.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,6903,1189735,00.html
--
Roland Perry
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