MacKichan doesn't seem to have an operational site and Mavis has
finished as a project. However, both seem like they're on the right
track, moving away from representation by some sort of desk-top
publishing program. My concern is not really centred on maths students;
as you say, people can develop their own notation if they have a ready
understanding of the concepts it must embody. I was more thinking of
people who find that core elements of their courses involve maths to a
degree they hadn't imagined when they enrolled. An example would be
compulsory statistics courses, often attached to Business Studies,
Social Sciences courses or Biological Sciences. I quite believe a
universal solution for support of this kind will never be produced for
the whole of higher education, but it might be possible to think of
ways of dealing with particular problems of representation that could
be extended into other areas. I hope the RNIB can succeed here; I
know it's difficult. This is one of the few times that I wish I knew
anything about practical programming.
Regards, Bernard
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 14:05:37 +0100 John Milligan
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Alex and other list members
>
> It is a problem for people using non-sighted methods of study. The few
> mathematicians I've known tend to be braillists who develop their own code
> and working methodology. This has primarily been done using a person reading
> the text and perkins brailler.
>
> My Technology Officer colleague has recently found a company producing
> software for scientific notation producers and they have a voice input and
> braille output section - link below;
>
> http://www.mackichan.com/
>
>
> there is also a group at New Mexico State University producing some software
> that converts a scientific notebook file to Nemeth braille codes suitable
> for driving a braille embosser. This group glories in the acronym of MAVIS
> (Mathematics Accessible to Visually Impaired Students) link below;
>
> www.nmsu.edu/~mavis/
>
> If people feel that there is a need for RNIB, or others, to get involved in
> this perhaps colleagues could contact me off list with specific issues and I
> will pass them on to the relevant person.
>
> Hope this is both helpful and perhaps gets the issue aired!
>
> Best wishes
>
> John M
>
> John Rous Milligan
> Senior Education Officer: Post 16
> RNIB Education and Employment Network
> 10 Still House Lane
> Bristol
> BS3 4EB
>
> Tel: 0117 953 7750
> Fax: 0117 953 7751
> Eml: [log in to unmask]
>
> www.RNIB.org.uk
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alex Larg [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 16 October 2003 11:04
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Scanning Maths Formulae
>
>
> Can the RNIB / you suggest what can be used then? How is the
> RNIB addressing this, if at all. Sounds like some expert help and
> guidance is generally required on this one John. What would a maths
> student accessed for study needs by RNIB be recommended for this?
>
> Alex.
>
>
>
> > The RNIB Guide was specifically designed for compulsory education and
> > shouldn't be used for post school learning really.
> >
> > John M
> >
> > John Rous Milligan
> > Senior Education Officer: Post 16
> > RNIB Education and Employment Network
> > 10 Still House Lane
> > Bristol
> > BS3 4EB
> >
> > Tel: 0117 953 7750
> > Fax: 0117 953 7751
> > Eml: [log in to unmask]
> >
> > www.RNIB.org.uk
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Iain Hood [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: 15 October 2003 14:08
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Scanning Maths Formulae
> >
> >
> > It's obviously a long time since Bernard was locked in a confined
> > space with a couple of mathematicians, but I concur with his general
> > analysis: for example the RNIB guide I mentioned (perhaps someone will
> > correct me on this) can handle up to about A-level standard but things
> > get ropey from there on into degree level maths.
> >
> > More work for the purveyors of raised diagrams, perhaps?
> >
> >
> > Iain
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:33:35 +0100 Bernard Doherty
> > <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > This is a shameless bump; can we take it that no one knows of any
> > > effective software that will manage complex equations? I think
> > > Iain's solution masks the problem rather than solves it:
> > > sophisticated maths notation is rarely a representation of spoken,
> > > natural language. A few brackets, an 'all over' or two, a
> > > sprinkling of 'to the power of' and very few people, sighted or
> > > otherwise, will be able to retain the expression, let alone apply it
> > > with confidence. In this regard, a complex equation is much more a
> > > diagram (like a mind-map, for example) than it is a sentence.
> > > Again, Iain is as aware as I am that Braille solutions, however
> > > effective, are always addressing a minority of the visually impaired
> > > and blind student population. Without a universal way of managing
> > > this, it is unfortuate that a number of students are simply unable
> > > to pursue core area of study. Someone invent something.
> > >
> > > Regards, Bernard
> > >
> > > On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:00:05 +0100 Iain Hood <[log in to unmask]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > It depends what format the student wants at the end point, Penny.
> > > > If enlarged text is the hope, photocopying would be better. If
> > > > Braille is what is trying to be achieved, I think you'll have to
> > > > convert the formulae into words (there is an RNIB guide, or a
> > > > mathematician could articulate the formulae) then these words
> > > > could be Brailled (or put in electronic format).
> > > >
> > > > As Bernard says, perhaps the scanner gonks have invented a
> > > > formula-reading programme, but I haven't heard of it.
> > > >
> > > > Iain
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 16:44:17 +0100 Bernard Doherty
> > > > <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Dear Penny
> > > > >
> > > > > I've looked into this problem several times and there doesn't
> > > > > seem to be any workable, commercially available solution. OCR
> > > > > Scanning software seems to read line by line, complex equations
> > > > > and formulae
> > use
> > > > > several lines simultaneously, hence the failure. One method is
> > > > > to use something like Omnipage and set the equations as a figure
> > > > > or illustration rather than text characters. In reality, this
> > > > > is how Equation 3 in Word or Mathtype work. This will succeed
> > > > > up to a point, but it increases the time it takes to scan
> > > > > material, it can't be made automatic and, if successful, the
> > > > > equation can't be managed by any of the standard speech engines.
> > > > > I know there have been a number of research projects into
> > > > > developing IT tools for blind and partially sighted maths
> > > > > students, but none of them seem to have produced deliverables
> > > > > (as they say in project-application speak). I would be really
> > > > > glad to hear that I've missed some common piece of software or
> > > > > of other ways of working, especially methods that students can
> > > > > manage independently.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards, Bernard
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:18:25 +0100 Penny Roper
> > > > > <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------
> > > > > Bernard Doherty
> > > > > Student Adviser
> > > > > ACCESS Centre
> > > > > Anglia Polytechnic University
> > > > >
> > > > > Tel: 01223 363271 x2534
> > > > > Fax: 01223 417730
> > > > > Minicom: 01223 576155
> > > > > [log in to unmask]
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------
> > > > Iain Hood
> > > > Senior Student Adviser, Learning Support
> > > >
> > > > [log in to unmask]
> > > >
> > > > Student Support Services
> > > > Anglia Polytechnic University
> > > > East Road
> > > > Cambridge
> > > > CB1 1PT
> > > >
> > > > 01223 363271 ex 2316
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > Bernard Doherty
> > > Student Adviser
> > > ACCESS Centre
> > > Anglia Polytechnic University
> > >
> > > Tel: 01223 363271 x2534
> > > Fax: 01223 417730
> > > Minicom: 01223 576155
> > > [log in to unmask]
> >
> > ----------------------
> > Iain Hood
> > Senior Student Adviser, Learning Support
> >
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> > Student Support Services
> > Anglia Polytechnic University
> > East Road
> > Cambridge
> > CB1 1PT
> >
> > 01223 363271 ex 2316
> >
> > -
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>
> Alex Larg
> University Disability Co-ordinator
> University of Oxford
> Tel: 01865 280562
> Fax: 01865 280300
> Email : [log in to unmask]
> (Tues - Thur)
>
> -
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> NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is
> confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the
> content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the
> sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it
> and any attachments from your system.
>
> RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by
> its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it
> cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted.
> We therefore recommend you scan all attachments.
>
> Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and
> any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent
> those of RNIB.
>
> RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227
>
> Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk
----------------------
Bernard Doherty
Student Adviser
ACCESS Centre
Anglia Polytechnic University
Tel: 01223 363271 x2534
Fax: 01223 417730
Minicom: 01223 576155
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