Dear Ray
I am somewhat confused if this is not relevant to you then why did you
send me an e-mail about this off-list at 7:18am this morning?
I am copying your message to Ann Singleton in case she or one of her
former colleagues wants to comment? on your unsubstantiated claim of
'pusillanimity of... CIREFI in this matter of production or publications of migration statistics'
You seem to be giving a misleading impression (by selective quotation)
on migration statistics in the EU as some sort of justification for the
existence of Migration Watch - I personally doubt if Sir Andrew Green
(who founded Migration Watch) has much interest in the statistical
'facts' about migration (he is not trying to publish peer reviewed
articles, or improve CIREF data collection!), Migration Watch is a
xenophobic organization with a political agenda to try to stop further
migration into the UK.
Dave Gordon
Ray Thomas wrote:
>I don't know why Dave Gordon addressed his message to me. His message is
>not relevant to any question I have asked. And I did not ask any question
>of him. Am I suffering from harassment? Is anyone else suffering from
>this harassment?
>
>Dave Gordon's message is nevertheless informative - although it is mostly
>out of date. Ann Singleton wrote independently on migration more recently,
>and more relevantly to the discussion on this list, in the Radstats book
>published in 1998. She concluded:
>
>"The dynamics of international migration flows .. are complex and generally
>not recorded in any administrative or statistical records. It is precisely
>these undocumented types of migration which may provide clues to help us
>gain a real understanding of population change in Europe ....
>
>"The biggest challenge .. is posed by those migrants who are not recorded or
>who are deemed to be 'illegal. These two categories are not equivalent
>...(These migrants) .. represent complex and dynamic patterns of human
>mobility. They present an opportunity to understand and analyse realities
>about migration which are not simply those produced and reproduced by the
>availability of the data. "
>
>Ann Singleton's more recent ECE paper is about the difficulty of getting any
>statistics of illegal immigration. Such statistics exist only for
>immigrants to return to their previous country.
>
>The Report by John Salt - Analysis and forecasting of international
>migration by major groups, prepared for Eurostat, referred to by David
>Gordon is similarly limited by the availability of statistics - particularly
>published statistics. It says
>
>"The European Commission's Centre for Information, Discussion and Exchange
>on Immigration (CIREFI) is responsible for the collection of standard
>datasets covering the different types of data listed above from individual
>European states. its aim is to provide a comparable and harmonised set of
>standard tables which cover the EU15 countries and 15 other non-EU states.
>These statistics are presented in the form of quarterly reports and are
>confidential (and thus are not generally available)."
>
>I should make clear that I am not a member or supporter of Migration Watch
>Though in view of the pusillaminity of the GSS, the ONS and CIREFI in this
>matter of production or publications of migration statistics I can
>understand why Migration Watch comes into existence. Expressing equanimity
>about the existence of Migration Watch seems to be a dangerous activity on
>this list. So perhaps I should also add that I do not support child abuse
>or the abusers of children.
>
>Ray Thomas
>**********************
>
>
>
>>Dear Ray
>>
>>If you really want to know about the sources of information and
>>statistics on migration that are available to Eurostat and/or the UN but
>>that are not always routinely available to ONS then you should have a
>>look at the work of my colleague Ann Singleton who has been on
>>secondment to the Eurostat Population Team on Migration and Asylum
>>Statistics since 1996. Ann has recently been on secondment to the
>>European commission with responsibility for drafting the statistical
>>legislation on migration and asylum. Her work (along with the first
>>ever comprehensive report on European Migration and Asylum) is available
>>on the Europa web site.
>>
>>The statistical framework can be found in
>>
>>Salt, J., Singleton, A. and J. Hogarth (1994), Europe's international
>>Migrants, London: HMSO, 223 p.
>>
>>and
>>
>>Salt, J., and A. Singleton (1995)
>>
>>Analysis and forecasting of international migration by major groups.
>>Report prepared on behalf of Eurostat. London: Migration Research Unit,
>>University College of London.
>>
>>Ann's paper for the UN Statistical Commission on 'STATISTICAL DATA ON
>>ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IN THE EUROPEAN UNION:'
>>http://www.unece.org/stats/documents/2003/04/migration/wp.13.e.pdf
>>
>>might also be helpful for those people with a scientific interest (as
>>opposed to xenophobic fear) in this subject
>>
>>Dave Gordon
>>
>>Ray Thomas wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>>The fact that ONS has denied being manipulated - and that should be
>>>>accepted - adds fuel to my contention that politicians are probably a
>>>>lesser evil than journalists and newspapers with a circulation or
>>>>political axe to grind.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Why this negative view?
>>>
>>>The ONS on the whole does a great job. But the ONS keep on boasting
>>>
>>>
>about
>
>
>>>the quality of their statistics - even when it is very poor - as with the
>>>Census that did not seriously attempt to count immigrants, illegals or
>>>non-resident partners, as with the Labour Force survey that fails to
>>>
>>>
>count
>
>
>>>with reasonable accuracy the number of claimant unemployed, as with the
>>>Family Resources Survey that fails to count with reasonable accuracy the
>>>number of recipients of a number of government benefits, as with economic
>>>statistics that are all to do with managing the economy and have little
>>>
>>>
>to
>
>
>>>say about our standard of living.
>>>
>>>I do not think that the ONS will get trust, or will deserve trust, until
>>>
>>>
>it
>
>
>>>starts emphasing the limitations of these statistics rather than their
>>>quality.
>>>
>>>I'm suprised at the naivity of the suggestion made that the UN provide
>>>authoritative statistics on the British population. Is the suggestion
>>>
>>>
>that
>
>
>>>the UN use sources not available to the ONS? If so I'd like to know
>>>about them!
>>>
>>>We need the journalists and the press desperately - to try to ensure that
>>>the ONS does what it is supposed to do. The main point of the Sunday
>>>
>>>
>Times
>
>
>>>piece that originated this discussion was that the Government leaned on
>>>
>>>
>the
>
>
>>>ONS on the timing of publication of immigration statistics. The response
>>>
>>>
>to
>
>
>>>this charge in the letter to the Statistics commission or in minister
>>>(McTaggarts (?)'s) response in a TV interview was hardly convincing.
>>>
>>>Seven years after the Labour Party's election pledge to create an
>>>statistical service independent to the government of the day, after Green
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>>Paper, White Paper and Code of Conduct, the situation seems to be that a
>>>government only has to drop a hint and the ONS will conform. It does
>>>
>>>
>not
>
>
>>>have to be a Labour Government. The present Government has managed to
>>>
>>>
>set
>
>
>>>a pattern that other governments will follow in manipulating reality.
>>>
>>>Ray Thomas
>>>**************************88
>>>
>>>******************************************************
>>>Please note that if you press the 'Reply' button your
>>>message will go only to the sender of this message.
>>>If you want to reply to the whole list, use your mailer's
>>>'Reply-to-All' button to send your message automatically
>>>to [log in to unmask]
>>>*******************************************************
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>--
>>Dave Gordon
>>Townsend Centre for International Poverty Research
>>University of Bristol
>>8 Priory Road
>>Bristol BS8 1TZ, UK
>>
>>E-Mail: [log in to unmask]
>>Tel: (44)-(117)-954 6761
>>Fax: (44)-(117)-954 6756
>>
>>******************************************************
>>Please note that if you press the 'Reply' button your
>>message will go only to the sender of this message.
>>If you want to reply to the whole list, use your mailer's
>>'Reply-to-All' button to send your message automatically
>>to [log in to unmask]
>>*******************************************************
>>
>>
>
>******************************************************
>Please note that if you press the 'Reply' button your
>message will go only to the sender of this message.
>If you want to reply to the whole list, use your mailer's
>'Reply-to-All' button to send your message automatically
>to [log in to unmask]
>*******************************************************
>
>
--
Dave Gordon
Townsend Centre for International Poverty Research
University of Bristol
8 Priory Road
Bristol BS8 1TZ, UK
E-Mail: [log in to unmask]
Tel: (44)-(117)-954 6761
Fax: (44)-(117)-954 6756
******************************************************
Please note that if you press the 'Reply' button your
message will go only to the sender of this message.
If you want to reply to the whole list, use your mailer's
'Reply-to-All' button to send your message automatically
to [log in to unmask]
*******************************************************
|