medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: Andrew Larsen <[log in to unmask]>
>The Albigensian Crusade was not an inquisitorial procedure.
i didn't intend to characterize it as such.
i believe that i characterized it (charitably, since this is a Family Values
list) as a "Land Grab."
....
>...the Albigensian Crusade actually demonstrates part of my point. Innocent
III lacked the ability to enforce his judgments against Raymond and the
Cathars and had to resort to using secular power, which ultimately turned the
Crusade from an action against heretics to an effort to conquer southern
France for the French Crown.
in my very limited knowledge of the revelent factoids (largely gleaned from
Zoe Oldenbourg's "Destiny of Fire") the Secular Arm --headed by Simon de
Montfort and with more than a few Minions from the Chartrain-- was, to put it
mildly, a rather enthusiastic Partner in "Innocent"'s little Project.
and, i'm sure that it's likely that that good Son of the Church, August Phil,
was more than On Board, as well.
>Ecclesiastical authority was frequently, though not always, limited by the
willingness of secular authorities to do as they were told.
perhaps, especially when the "ecclesiastical authority" was disrupting the
structure of power on which the "secular authorities" depended.
which is why the "crusade" against the Alibes was such a happy Co-in-sidence
of Interests, "ecclesiastical" and "secular".
c
> On Oct 27, 2011, at 9:56 AM, Christopher Crockett wrote:
> >
> >
> >> but in other cases the secular authority refused to carry out the
sentence.
> >
> > a fairly rare occurrence, i should assume.
> >
> > i doubt if there were many examples of this phenomenon during the Great
Land
> > Grab of Innocent3 and Mr. Montfort which we euphemistically know as the
> > Alibgensian "Cursade," where the Iron Fist seems to have worked rather
> > smoothly within the Velvet Glove of Mother Church.
> >
> > c
> >
> >> Andrew E. Larsen
> >> Marquette University
> >> On Oct 27, 2011, at 9:13 AM, Christopher Crockett wrote:
> >>
> >>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
culture
> >>>
> >>> thanks for the clarification, Andrew.
> >>>
> >>> actually, when i used the word i was thinking, not so much about the
> >>> [in]famous Spanish one but rather of what i suppose must be termed the
> >>> "proto-Inquisition" (except that its sequel is a myth) which held forth
> > during
> >>> the Albegensian Crusade.
> >>>
> >>> and, by extension, all "inquisitions" [hoping the lower case mollifies
> > your
> >>> concerns] which held inquisitions into the question of "heresy."
> >>>
> >>> grouping them all under the rubric of "The Inquisition" was just done
for
> >>> theatrical purposes, so that i could pitch the movie version of this
list
> > to
> >>> some middlevillay-challenged producers i'm "doing lunch" with early
next
> >>> week.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> nevertheless, the question remains: *could* the "ecclesiastical courts"
of
> > The
> >>> Inquisition --or any other "authorities" investigating/trying heresy
> > cases)
> >>> pass a death sentence?
> >>>
> >>> where is Jim Brundage when we need him?
> >>>
> >>> c
> >>>
> >>> ------ Original Message ------
> >>> Received: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 10:00:44 AM EDT
> >>> From: Andrew Larsen <[log in to unmask]>
> >>> To: [log in to unmask]
> >>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Theft of metal from UK churches
> >>>
> >>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> > culture
> >>>>
> >>>> 'The Inquisition' is a scholarly myth, largely exploded by Richard
> >>> Kieckhefer. Its a general consensus among scholars that I know who work
> > on
> >>> heresy agree is correct. Regional branches of government such as the
> > Spanish
> >>> Inquisition existed, but there was no institutionalized arm of the
> > medieval
> >>> Church known as 'the Inqusition'. Instead there were individual men
> >>> designated to act as inquisitors. But not institutional structure,
> > identity,
> >>> or memory beyond what was provided by the Dominican Order, from which a
> >>> majority of inquisitors were drawn.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Andrew E. Larsen
> >>>> Marquette University
> >>>>
> >>>> On Oct 27, 2011, at 8:52 AM, Christopher Crockett wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> > culture
> >>>>>
> >>>>> From: HenkADSL <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I doubt if eccles[ias]tical courts had gallows, as they were not
> > allowed
> >>> to
> >>>>> pronounce death sentences.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> the several victims of the Inquisition will be relieved to hear that,
> >>> Hank.
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