medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

From: Ms B M Cook <[log in to unmask]>

i wrote:

> i believe that the best (secondary) source for [Teddy the Trickster] might
remain this Oldie
 
> Lex, Léonce (1859-1926)
> Eudes, comte de Blois, de Tours, de Chartres, de Troyes et de Meaux
(995-1037), et Thibaud, son frère (995-1004)

> @ Many thanks for that. Will hunt it up.

don't have to hunt much --it's on http://Gallica.bnf.fr

but, as i sent that y'day, the Little Voice was telling me "you can do better
than *that* ole thing."

and last night i found

Karl Ferdinand Werner, “L'acquisition par la Maison de Blois des comtés de
Chartres et de Châteaudun,” Mélanges de numismatique, d'archéologie et
d'histoire offerts à Jean Lafaurie. 
Paris: Société française de numismatique, 1980, pp. 265-272.

[which i have OCRed, to be sent to anyone who wants it]

Werner has long been about the best historian working on this period
(10th-early 11th c.) of Neustrian history (among other things), and this
article --which i've taken the opportunity to re-read-- is a quite marvelous
lesson in the methodology of how to squeeze absolutely *everything* which can
be squeezed out of virtually no sources at all, here using numismatic evidence
(after exhaustively looking at the excessively scanty and laconic written
sources).

p. 265 has some more refs for Teddy the T, all of which are pretty good:

Nous n'allons pas résumer ici toutes les hypothèses qui ont été proposées
au sujet des origines de la maison de Blois.3 En renvoyant nos lecteurs à un
travail ultérieur4, nous précisons simplement qu'il faut distinguer du comte
bien connu sous le nom de « Thibaud le Tricheur », son père homonyme qui
était, à partir de 905/908, vicomte de Tours. Les deux Thibaud figurent
ensemble dans des actes de 930 et 931 avant que le père ne meurt, en 942 au
plus tard. A une date qui reste à déterminer, mais qui se place

3. R. MERLET, “Les comtes de Chartres, de Châteaudun et de Blois aux IXe et
Xe siècles,” Mém. Soc. archéol. d'Eure-et-Loir, 12 (1895-1900), 1-84; 

F. LOT, “L'origine de Thibaud le Tricheur,” Le Moyen Age, 20 (1907),
168-189, réimpr. : Recueil des travaux historiques de Ferdinand Lot, t. 3,
Genève-Paris, 1973, 103-123; 

J. DEPOIN, “Etudes préparatoires à l'histoire des grandes familles
palatines. III: Thibaud le Tricheur fut-il un bâtard et mourut-il presque
centenaire?,” Revue des études historiques, 74 (1908), 553-602; 

F. LESUEUR, “Thibaud le Tricheur, comte de Blois, de Tours et de Chartres au
Xe siècle,” Mém. Soc. Scienc. et Lettres de Loir-et-Cher, 33 (1963); 

J. BOUSSARD, “L'origine des familles seigneuriales dans la région de la
Loire moyenne,” Cah. de Civil, médiév., 5 (1962), 303-322. [Voir la note
p. 272].

4. K.F. WERNER, Les origines et les débuts politiques des comtes de la maison
de Blois (avec Catalogue d’actes), à paraître dans la Coll. “ Beihefte
der Francia.” 

En attendant, cf. nos “Untersuchungen zur Frühzeit des französischen
Furstentums, 9-10. Jh.,” Die Welt als Geschichte, 18 (1958), 256-289; 19
(1959), 146-193; 20 (1960), 87-119.

K.F. WERNER, “Königtum und Furstentum im französischen 12. Jahrhundert,”
Vorträge und Forschungen, 12 (1968), 177-225 (utilisant des textes concernant
la maison de Blois, Xe-XIIe s.; traduction anglaise dans T. REUTER (éd.),
Medieval Nobility, Leiden, 1978. 243-290) ; 

K.F. WERNER, “Westfranken-Frankreich unter den Spätkarolingern und frühen
Kapetingern. 888-1060,” in Handbuch der Europäischen Geschichte, p.p. Th.
SCHIEDER, t. 1, Stuttgart. 1976, 731-783.



> André-Yves is certainly right (assuming we're looking for a contemporary
of
P.A.) and Thibault IV (of Blois/Chartres/Troyes/Champagne) is our guy, and 
the site he gave us
 
>>http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CENTRAL%20FRANCE.htm#_Toc148934728

> @ The Foundation for Medieval Genealogy aims to produce the most accurate 
and authoritative genealogical record possible of the landowning classes. 

good luck, on that little enterprize.

>Charles Cawley is going back to, and citing, original sources wherever 
possible 

the only way to do it --have to build the Trees up from scratch, founded on
the document (mostly charter) base.

tedious work.

i gave it up.

mostly.

still ocassionally backsliding, but, basically, Recovering nicely, thank you.

>and identifies later, less reliable sources if that's all there is. 

for the relatively minor, French, folks, this is mostly to be found in the
publications of the local archeological/historical societés, and the quality
of that stuff is very, very uneven --and even the best of it is in part
superceded by the later publication of documents (or of documents which have
not yet been published).

>I THINK he's a (retired ?) lawyer.

ah, well then, there's no problem.

> for the Thibaudians at Chartres/Blois generally, August Molinier's
introduction to his edition of the necrologies of the Chartres diocese
 
> Obituaires de la province de Sens... Tome II,
 
> @ Another useful reference.

just a few pages on the counts, their wives and progeny.

still useful, i think.

> "Henry of Blois,"

> Henry's career was very much centered in England (B. of Winchester, etc.).
 
> @ I think you are confusing an uncle and a nephew. The H de B who was Bp of

Winchester (1099-1171) was uncle to H de B (1126-1181) (Known as The 
Liberal) and Count of Champagne after 1152.

i've never bothered to get all those guys straight, but discounted *Count*
Henry because he was too late to be PA's helper.

> @ Actually it was his MOTHER Matilda of Carinthia who was Heloise's patron 
(She put up the money for one of the Paraclete's daughter-houses.)

an infinity of reasons why those guys did stuff like that --from wanting to
found a necropolis for themselves to wanting to provide a job for some younger
child, sibling or godchild, and everything in between.

> for your interest, if you want an overview of the general political 
background in Champagne, you might take a look at
 
> Michel Bur, La formation du comté de Champagne: v. 950-v. 1150. (Mémoires
des Annales de l'Est, no. 54) Nancy: Université de Nancy II, 1977.  573 pp.
 
> @ Thanks no. 3

looked at *that* last night as well.

one of those Duby-inspired dissertations, i think, which means that it's not a
"straight" narrative history but rather kinda "topically driven."

solid enough piece of work, though, with considerable access to the sources.

doesn't seem to mention the Paraclete at all.

> meanwhile, i'd just point out the obvious, viz., that saying stuff like
"rapit..rapta" ain't the kind of language which one uses to endear oneself 
to the Rich & Powerful, seems to me.

> @ Since when was tact PA's middle name ? 

yeahbut, even so, you don't go Dissing your former patron --esp. if he's a
powerful guy-- unless that Bridge has been good and burned.

and, you Diss *him*, you also Diss all his clan, if you're not real careful.

>The CdA was OSTENSIBLY a "private" letter to son Astralabe so liable to be
even less tactful than normal. 

perhaps.

>And it contains some very rude - if allusive - things about, guess what ? 
Bernard of C and the Cistercians. 

oh, Duh.

butbut, that's quite a different matter --Diss your enemies all you like,
publically or privately.

>I am trying to annotate all the Proper names in the poem. 

whatever Turns you On, i suppose.

>One reason for suspecting that a folktale personality was involved here is
that the following two lines refer to King Solomon and  is a reference [Med
Rel] tried to unravel for me some month ago. I now suspect that that ref is to
a Jewish folktale. So, why not 2 folktale refs ? 

sounded to me to be pretty straightforwardly referring to Teddy4, from the
little bit you sent.

>But PA isn't necessarily THAT logical!!!

but, i thought that he was the Father of Modren Rationalism.

> Lindy Grant, “Geoffrey of Lèves, Bishop of Chartres: Famous Wheeler and
Dealer in Secular Business,”
> which i have a fairly decent OCR copy of and could send to you --or anyone
else-- if you like.

> @ If not already grabbed, I'd like to take up the offer.

actually, i do think that i may just enough electrons left here to put
together another copy.

> “Arnulf’s mentor: Geoffrey de Lèves, bishop of Chartres,”
in David Bates, Julia Crick and Sarah Hamilton, eds., Writing Medieval
Biography, 750-1250:
 
> @I have this. I missed the Conference in Exeter and I'm still kicking 
myself. Would you like a p/copy as a swap ? Or even just a p/copy ?

it *is* of interest --because Godfrey is of great interest (Main Mover behind
the Chartres Royal Portal, surely).

only if you can scan it and conveniently send it.

Grant Wheeler-Dealer article comming, off list.

c

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