medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Dear Chris,
> The only person I know of who MIGHT fit is Thibault of Chartres, aka
Thibault the Trickster, Count of Blois, 945-974. But I suspect he is too
early
and does not seem to be quite right.
only one of the Thibaudians (the first one, at least at Blois) was
officially
known as "le Tricheur," and since your Petie is speaking of him in the
present
tense, this particular Trickster is a bit too early for his reference,
having
inconviently died in 975.
@ I thought so too.
i believe that the best (secondary) source for him might remain this Oldie
Lex, Léonce (1859-1926)
Eudes, comte de Blois, de Tours, de Chartres, de Troyes et de Meaux
(995-1037), et Thibaud, son frère (995-1004)
@ Many thanks for that. Will hunt it up.
André-Yves is certainly right (assuming we're looking for a contemporary of
P.A.) and Thibault IV (of Blois/Chartres/Troyes/Champagne) is our guy, and
the
site he gave us
>http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CENTRAL%20FRANCE.htm#_Toc148934728
@ The Foundation for Medieval Genealogy aims to produce the most accurate
and authoritative genealogical record possible of the landowning classes.
Charles Cawley is going back to, and citing, original sources wherever
possible and identifies later, less reliable sources if that's all there is.
I THINK he's a (retired ?) lawyer.
looks to be pretty good one (for a site on The Innernets), to me.
@ It is an excellent corrective to SOME of the genealogical stuff online.
However, I am biased, being a (inactive) member of the fmg myself.
for the Thibaudians at Chartres/Blois generally, August Molinier's
introduction to his edition of the necrologies of the Chartres diocese
Obituaires de la province de Sens... Tome II,
@ Another useful reference.
"Henry of Blois,"
Henry's career was very much centered in England (B. of Winchester, etc.).
@ I think you are confusing an uncle and a nephew. The H de B who was Bp of
Winchester (1099-1171) was uncle to H de B (1126-1181) (Known as The
Liberal) and Count of Champagne after 1152.
what role (if any) he might have had in patronizing P.A. is something i'll
be
glad to wait until your book appears to find out.
@ Actually it was his MOTHER Matilda of Carinthia who was Heloise's patron
(She put up the money for one of the Paraclete's daughter-houses.)
>is there ANY evidence for T 4 de Blois being a plunderer of churches as
>well
as a founder of them ? Or any similar pair of attributes ?
so, i'll have to do some more spadework on Ted at some point in my young
career, but can't do it now.
@ If you DO find anything in the next couple of years I'd be pleased to
share it.
for your interest, if you want an overview of the general political
background
in Champagne, you might take a look at
Michel Bur, La formation du comté de Champagne: v. 950-v. 1150. (Mémoires
des Annales de l'Est, no. 54)
Nancy: Université de Nancy II, 1977. 573 pp.
@ Thanks no. 3
meanwhile, i'd just point out the obvious, viz., that saying stuff like
>
"rapit..rapta" ain't the kind of language which one uses to endear oneself
to
the Rich & Powerful, seems to me.
@ Since when was tact PA's middle name ? The CdA was OSTENSIBLY a "private"
letter to son Astralabe so liable to be even less tactful than normal. And
it contains some very rude - if allusive - things about, guess what ?
Bernard of C and the Cistercians. I am trying to annotate all the Proper
names in the poem. One reason for suspecting that a folktale personality was
involved here is that the following two lines refer to King Solomon and is
a reference [Med Rel] tried to unravel for me some month ago. I now suspect
that that ref is to a Jewish folktale. So, why not 2 folktale refs ? But PA
isn't necessarily THAT logical!!!
among P.A.'s supporters was, of course, Bishop Godfrey of Chartres, a very
important fellow in the France of the 2nd quarter of c. 12.
you may not have seen this mini-biography of him published recently
Lindy Grant, “Geoffrey of Lèves, Bishop of Chartres: Famous Wheeler and
Dealer in Secular Business,”
which i have a fairly decent OCR copy of and could send to you --or anyone
else-- if you like.
@ If not already grabbed, I'd like to take up the offer.
Grant's _Abbot Suger of St.-Denis: church and state in early twelfth-century
France_ (New York, 1998)
is also of use (Grant is primarily an art hysterian, but this is mostly a
historical study).
@ Have this. I'd better read it (:-)
i haven't seen her latest essay,
“Arnulf’s mentor: Geoffrey de Lèves, bishop of Chartres,”
in David Bates, Julia Crick and Sarah Hamilton, eds., Writing Medieval
Biography, 750-1250:
@I have this. I missed the Conference in Exeter and I'm still kicking
myself. Would you like a p/copy as a swap ? Or even just a p/copy ?
This was an enormously useful response, Chris, many, many thanks.
Brenda.
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