medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
of course my subject/verb non-agreement was not apt in previous message.
sorry all, sharon
___________________________
Sharon Dale Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Art History
Penn State Erie, The Behrend College
----- Original Message -----
Wrom: MVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNN
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: [M-R] Violent and/or figthing bishops?
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> Hello all. Sarah, your comments about the pope of the Great Schism is apt.
> You did confuse the names. The Avignon pope to whom you referred as
> organizing the massacre of Cesena in1377 was Clement VII, who as Robert,
> Count of Geneva served as the legate to Pope Gregory XI and was most
> certainly considered a butcher. The problem then arose that as "schismatic
> pope," he was administratively more competent and just a lot smarter than
> his Roman counterpart, Urban VI, who was likely clinically paranoid, but
> who, as a result of his ineptitude, did in fact have everyone plotting
> against him. It is an amazing story and I happen to be in Rome this year,
> slogging through the Vatican archives to reconstruct it. Balluze's Vitae
> Paparum Avenionensium has a lot of the documents that pertain to these two
> popes and includes an interested set of rationes/responsiones regarding
> Clement's legitimacy as pope. One ratio specifically cites the question of
> his violent past. "It is said that our pope is a man of blood who often
> ordered murders and led armies into war. And this kind of man should not
be
> elected pope. To which we reply, (from Psalms XXII) Rubeum sanguinen
> effudisti bella bellasti. Non poteris edificare domum nomini meo tanto
> effuso sanguine." What is truly chilling of course, is how pertinent that
> quotation is today. All best, Sharon
>
>
> ___________________________
>
> Sharon Dale Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of Art History
> Penn State Erie, The Behrend College
> ----- Original Message -----
> Wrom: PNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZF
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 9:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [M-R] Violent and/or figthing bishops?
>
>
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
culture
> >
> > Isn't the famous quote "Sang et sang" from the lips of some fighting
> > prelate or other? And IIRC, the first Benedict of the Great Schism was
> > called "the Butcher of Cesena" in Italy for his leadership in the
> > putting-down of an Italian rebellion...and I might very well be
> > hallucinating, but I seem to be remembering he might have personally
> > taken part in the fighting, not just directed it.
> >
> > (Very interesting to me is the level of technicality in the whole
> > prohibition on bloodshed by clergy -- for instance, the suggestion that
> > as long as you don't literally shed blood violence is okay (thinking
> > especially of Inquisitorial torture here, and the idea that only the
> > "secular arm" burned heretics and thus the Church was uninvolved). Or
> > the fact that clerics were frequently in the position of having to hire
> > or direct troops even when they didn't directly participate in the
> > subsequent bloodshed. It's especially hard to imagine how a bishop could
> > operate as a secular liege -- which they frequently did -- without
> > eventually getting involved in warfare and the execution of criminals,
> > so those guys were kind of laboring under a contradiction in terms...)
> >
> > These are vague recollections from reading done a long time ago, so if
> > I'm leading anybody astray, my apologies in advance.
> >
> > --Sarah Roark
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > "It comes in pints?"
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > Wrom: SQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSN
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Torben Nielsen
> > Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 12:31 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: [M-R] Violent and/or figthing bishops?
> >
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> > culture
> >
> > Dear learned colleagues
> > One of my students is currently working on a project involving an
> > examination into the crusades and the possible (paradoxical) incidences
> > of
> > violent bishops or other prelates. If any of you know of any such
> > incidents
> > in any sources, where bishops actually are reported to have shed human
> > blood, I should be happy to hear of this.
> > Best wishes
> > Torben K. Nielsen, Aalborg University
> >
> > Torben K. Nielsen, Ph.D
> > Associate Professor, Head of Studies
> > Department of History
> > Aalborg University - Denmark
> >
> > **********************************************************************
> > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> > to: [log in to unmask]
> > To send a message to the list, address it to:
> > [log in to unmask]
> > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> > to: [log in to unmask]
> > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> > [log in to unmask]
> > For further information, visit our web site:
> > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
> >
> > **********************************************************************
> > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> > to: [log in to unmask]
> > To send a message to the list, address it to:
> > [log in to unmask]
> > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> > to: [log in to unmask]
> > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> > [log in to unmask]
> > For further information, visit our web site:
> > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
> >
>
> **********************************************************************
> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> to: [log in to unmask]
> To send a message to the list, address it to:
> [log in to unmask]
> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> to: [log in to unmask]
> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> [log in to unmask]
> For further information, visit our web site:
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>
**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
To send a message to the list, address it to:
[log in to unmask]
To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
to: [log in to unmask]
In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
[log in to unmask]
For further information, visit our web site:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
|