medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Hello all. Sarah, your comments about the pope of the Great Schism is apt.
You did confuse the names. The Avignon pope to whom you referred as
organizing the massacre of Cesena in1377 was Clement VII, who as Robert,
Count of Geneva served as the legate to Pope Gregory XI and was most
certainly considered a butcher. The problem then arose that as "schismatic
pope," he was administratively more competent and just a lot smarter than
his Roman counterpart, Urban VI, who was likely clinically paranoid, but
who, as a result of his ineptitude, did in fact have everyone plotting
against him. It is an amazing story and I happen to be in Rome this year,
slogging through the Vatican archives to reconstruct it. Balluze's Vitae
Paparum Avenionensium has a lot of the documents that pertain to these two
popes and includes an interested set of rationes/responsiones regarding
Clement's legitimacy as pope. One ratio specifically cites the question of
his violent past. "It is said that our pope is a man of blood who often
ordered murders and led armies into war. And this kind of man should not be
elected pope. To which we reply, (from Psalms XXII) Rubeum sanguinen
effudisti bella bellasti. Non poteris edificare domum nomini meo tanto
effuso sanguine." What is truly chilling of course, is how pertinent that
quotation is today. All best, Sharon
___________________________
Sharon Dale Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Art History
Penn State Erie, The Behrend College
----- Original Message -----
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To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: [M-R] Violent and/or figthing bishops?
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> Isn't the famous quote "Sang et sang" from the lips of some fighting
> prelate or other? And IIRC, the first Benedict of the Great Schism was
> called "the Butcher of Cesena" in Italy for his leadership in the
> putting-down of an Italian rebellion...and I might very well be
> hallucinating, but I seem to be remembering he might have personally
> taken part in the fighting, not just directed it.
>
> (Very interesting to me is the level of technicality in the whole
> prohibition on bloodshed by clergy -- for instance, the suggestion that
> as long as you don't literally shed blood violence is okay (thinking
> especially of Inquisitorial torture here, and the idea that only the
> "secular arm" burned heretics and thus the Church was uninvolved). Or
> the fact that clerics were frequently in the position of having to hire
> or direct troops even when they didn't directly participate in the
> subsequent bloodshed. It's especially hard to imagine how a bishop could
> operate as a secular liege -- which they frequently did -- without
> eventually getting involved in warfare and the execution of criminals,
> so those guys were kind of laboring under a contradiction in terms...)
>
> These are vague recollections from reading done a long time ago, so if
> I'm leading anybody astray, my apologies in advance.
>
> --Sarah Roark
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> "It comes in pints?"
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Wrom: SQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSN
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Torben Nielsen
> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 12:31 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [M-R] Violent and/or figthing bishops?
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> culture
>
> Dear learned colleagues
> One of my students is currently working on a project involving an
> examination into the crusades and the possible (paradoxical) incidences
> of
> violent bishops or other prelates. If any of you know of any such
> incidents
> in any sources, where bishops actually are reported to have shed human
> blood, I should be happy to hear of this.
> Best wishes
> Torben K. Nielsen, Aalborg University
>
> Torben K. Nielsen, Ph.D
> Associate Professor, Head of Studies
> Department of History
> Aalborg University - Denmark
>
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