Terry,

I don't know how many there are like me - who have (a) a significant
interest in design education but (b) haven't had the time yet to read the
necessary literature; nonetheless "we" appreciated your post and the
references to Friere and the others. I had not known about them and have
added them to my reading list.

\V/_  /fas

*Prof. Filippo A. Salustri, Ph.D., P.Eng.*
Associate Chair, Mechanical Engineering, Ryerson University
"I do not share your view that the scientist should observe silence in
political matters." -Albert Einstein
EMAIL <[log in to unmask]> | WEB <https://deseng.ryerson.ca/~fil/> | ORCID
<https://orcid.org/0000-0002-3689-5112>


On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 at 00:43, Terence Love <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Dear Nigel and all,
>
> @Nigel Your review of the origins of design research was delightful to
> read. Thank you
>
> Its descriptions of the origins seem accurate.  I was also studying at
> that time in the 60s  being mentored by  the late  John Woollatt, one of
> your co-students on that first Masters course in engineering product design
> research at UMIST. John later became a staff member in Design at what
> became Northumbria University whose staff taught Jony Ive.
>
> I read Keith Russell's post somewhat differently to what has been
> presented.
>
> Some years ago, in a discussion here in Australia about students being
> clients or customers of universities, Prof Bryn Tellefsen from BI, Oslo
> said somewhat forcefully,  'We would NEVER refer to our students as clients
> or customers!'
>
> When asked how students would be referred to at BI  (in the light of the
> discussion about universities being businesses), Bryn said, 'We see
> students as colleagues - future colleagues'.
>
> The educationalist Paolo Friere takes a similar tack arguing that the
> essence of education of adults is that the learner is a responsible being.
> That the educand (student)  must be the director and person responsible for
> their own growth in learning.  From Friere's perspective (my reading)
> education is either a mode of conditioning  or a practice of freedom to
> take responsibility in transforming the world. The latter is essential to
> adult learning. His critical pedagogy sees all education and learning as
> political acts serving either the political agenda of the institutions, or
> serving those learners learning to take a critical view. In light of the
> current discussion about developing design as a discipline, I suggest it is
> essential the focus is the latter: the self-directed learning of the
> learner. In this,  the teacher or educator is almost irrelevant, at most a
> facilitator of access to ideas. And, if the educator/teacher attempts to be
> more than that, it is problematic.
>
> From a different direction, making the same points, is the work of Ivan
> Illich in his critical analyses of education and teaching  in for example,
> Deschooling Society.
>
> More recently, the literature on adult education and informal education
> and their philosophical foundations echo the same perspectives as Friere
> and Illich (and if I read it right, Keith) (see, for example, infed.org
> on adult education and the work of Malcom Knowles).
>
> In essence, Friere and the others above focus on androgogy (the
> appropriate learning activities and education of adult learners), rather
> than pedagogy (the education processes treating learners as children).
>
> Applying methods of pedagogy on adult learners (as is often described as
> the primary process of education in universities) - and, from the design
> education literature and your article, what seemingly underpins the
> education of design as a discipline -  is in philosophical terms  treating
> adult learners as if they were children. Though this doesn't go perhaps as
> far as Keith commented about treating education as if training infants.
>
> I read much of what Keith wrote in the above light.
>
> From this perspective,  a criticism of design education as described in
> your article (and of university education more generally) is that it
> doesn't place the primary responsibility for learning on the learner.
> Instead, it places that responsibility on the educator. It implies,
> philosophically, university education treats adult learners as if they were
> children as the essence of the university education process.
>
> The occasional  descriptions of design education in your 'Developing
> design as a discipline' echo the pedagogy perspective rather than an
> androgogical one. It can be seen for instance in e.g. '...We were never
> TAUGHT [my emphasis] how to design'. This is in contrast to an androgogical
> perspective for the adult learner of, perhaps, 'We were never given
> opportunities to learn how to design'.
>
> From this, there is a potential argument that most developments of Design
> and Design Research as disciplines are restricted and limited if education
> is limited to pedagogy, rather than androgogy. To me this seems to be the
> main thrust of Keith's comments.
>
> To leven the above, as an aside to comment on our own comments, the
> following story came to mind, which is an hopefully illuminating  allegory
> of the process.
>
> Best wishes,
> Terence
>
> ==
> The Increasing of Necessity
>
> The tyrannical ruler of Turkestan was listening to the tales of a dervish
> one evening, when he bethought himself of asking about Khidr.
>
> “Khidr,” said the dervish, “comes in response to need. Seize his coat when
> he appears, and all-knowledge is yours.”
>
> “Can this happen to anyone?” asked the king.
>
> “Anyone capable,” said the dervish.
>
> “Who more ‘capable’ than I?” thought the king, and he published a
> proclamation:
>
> “He who presents to me the Invisible Khidr, the Great Protector of Men,
> him shall I enrich.”
>
> A poor old man by the name of Bakhtiar Baba, hearing this proclamation
> cried by the heralds, formed an idea. He said to his wife:
>
> “I have a plan. We shall soon be rich, but a little later I shall have to
> die. But this does not matter for our riches will leave you well provided
> for.”
>
> Then Bakhtiar went before the king and told him that he would find Khidr
> within forty days, if the king would give him a thousand pieces of gold.
> “If you find Khidr,” said the king, “You shall have ten times this thousand
> pieces of gold. If you do not, you will die, executed on this very spot as
> a warning to those who trifle with kings.”
>
> Bakhtiar accepted the conditions. He returned home and gave the money to
> his wife, as a provision for the rest of her life. The rest of the forty
> days he spent in contemplation, preparing himself for the other life.
>
> On the fortieth day he went before the king. “Your Majesty,” he said,
> “your greed caused you to think that money would produce Khidr. But Khidr,
> as it is related, does not appear in response to something given from a
> position of greed.”
>
> The king was furious: “Wretch, you have forfeited your life: who are you
> to trifle with the aspirations of a king?”
>
> Bakhtiar, said: “Legend has it that any man may meet Khidr, but the
> meeting will be fruitful only in so far as that mans’ intentions are
> correct. Khidr, they say, would visit you to the extent and for the period
> that you were worth his while being visited. This is something over which
> neither you nor I have any control.”
>
> “Enough of this wrangling,” said the king, “for it will not prolong your
> life. It only remains to ask the ministers assembled here for their advice
> upon the best way to put you to death.”
>
> He turned to First Wasir and said: “How shall this man die?”
>
> The First Wazir said, “Roast him alive as a warning.”
>
> The Second Wazir, speaking in order of precedence, said: “Dismember him
> limb from limb.”
>
> The Third Wazir said: Provide him with the necessities of life, instead of
> forcing him to cheat in order to provide for his family.”
>
> While this discussion was going on, an ancient sage had walked into the
> assembly hall.
>
> As soon as the Third Wazir had spoken, the sage said:
>
> “Every man opines in accordance with his permanent hidden prejudices.”
>
> “What do you mean?” asked the king.
>
> “I mean, that the First Wazir was originally a baker, so he speaks in
> terms of roasting. The Second Wazir used to be a butcher, so he talks about
> dismemberment. The Third Wazir, having made a study of statecraft, sees the
> origin of the matter we are discussing.
>
> “Note two things. First, that Khidr appears and serves each man in
> accordance with that man’s ability to profit by his coming. Second, that
> this man, Bakhtiar, whom I name Baba in token of his sacrifices, was driven
> by despair to do what he did. He increased his necessity and accordingly
> made me appear to you.”
>
> As they watched, the ancient sage melted before their eyes. Trying to do
> what Khidr directed, the king gave a permanent allowance to Bakhtiar. The
> First Two Wazirs were dismissed, and the thousand pieces of gold were
> returned to the royal treasury by Bakhtiar Baba and his wife.
>
> How the king was able to see Khidr again, and what transpired between them
> is in the story of the story of the story of the Unseen World.
>
> Bakhtiar Baba is said to have been a Sufi sage who lived a humble and
> unremarkable life in Khorasan until the events described above.
>
> This tale, attributed also to many other Sufi sheikhs, illustrates the
> concept of the entwining of human aspiration with another range of being.
> Khidr is the link between these two spheres.
>
> The title is taken from Jalaludin Rumi’s famous poem: “New organs of
> perception come into being as a result of necessity. Therefore, O man,
> increase your necessity, so that you may increase your perception.”
>
> (~ Idries Shah, Tales of the Dervishes)
> ==
>
>
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