medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: "Kay, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
> Dear Christopher,
>There is a long and learned answer but here's the short and sweet one.
good-o.
i hate those lengthy ones with all the danged footnotes and everything --they
waste so many innocent electrons.
better to just Cut to the pre-digested Chase.
>The oldest extant source that I know of is an ordo for celebrating a Sens
provincial council, saec. XIV, contained in London, British Library, MS.
Egerton 931. Martene's edition of this text is the only one I know of, though
just where he found it is unclear.
yes, those Old Guys were not ones to waste too much ink, giving their
sources.
though i am increasingly amazed at the truly staggering amount of material
they went through --and, incidentally, published.
that Maurist scholarship, particularly, has certainly never been equaled, in
my experience.
>He printed it together with the ordo for a Sens diocesan synod, designating
the pair as "Ordo IX" among his conciliar ordines; I find it convenient to
distinguish the provincial one as "Ordo IXA," the diocesan one as "IXB." This
should enable you to find it in any of the 3 editions of Martene's *De
antiquis Ecclesiae ritibus.*
i pretty much Struck Out trying to run down the Chartres leads you kindly gave
me yesterday.
will surely have more luck with these more detailed ones.
>For more references, consult Martimort's study of Martene's sources in *Studi
e testi* 279 (1978).
never came across this one before.
sounds interesting.
i'll try and have a look-see.
i have become increasingly interested in the working methods of the Maurists
--clearly they hit, early on, on some which worked pretty well.
*what* a Network they had...
scores of guys, all over France, scribbling, scribbling, scribbling away at
each other.
talk about Successful Sublimation.
>Also, there is a copy of the text in Sens, Bibl. Mun., MS. 11 (made 1671 from
a MS saec. XIV): see Leroquais, *Les pontificaux,* no. 201. Further
references in Kay, *Pontificalia,* available on the web at the University of
Kansas "ScholarWorks" site.
will check that out, as well.
>The text is abundantly clear that Chartres is the dean of the province's
bishops; it also gives the precise seating order etc. etc.
and, presumably, we can extrapolate the evidence from c. 14 source back to...?
as i said, i never doubted that Chartres might be the most important suffragan
of Sens (duh), just that i had never come across any actual reference to it in
the documents (which is a very different thing).
that's perhaps because, like the Drunk at night who only looks for his lost
keys under the lamp post (because that's the only place where there is light),
i only know the Chartres documents and have never really gotten into whatever
might have survived at Sens.
(back in the '60s that was because there was no youth hostel in Sens
--however, i'm at a loss to come up with an excuse for the neglect in more
recent decades.)
many thanks, again, Richard.
more inabit.
c
> -----Original Message-----
> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Christopher
Crockett
> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 11:23 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [M-R] Bishops as dean of an ecclesiastic province (WAS: Re:
[M-R] transmission of news in early 15th-century western Europe)
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> From: James Bugslag <[log in to unmask]>
>
> > This is very interesting Richard.
>
> indeed it is.
>
> and many thanks, Richard.
>
> >I haven't had time to check it yet,
>
> nor have i --still trying to run down a 1702 ed. of Martene.
>
> not here, apparently
>
> http://tinyurl.com/b3w2p99
>
> (Hathitrust.org link --probably requires a subscription)
>
> >but the programme of stained glass in the clerestory windows of the
> >east end
> of Reims Cathedral represent all the suffagan bishoprics in the archdiocese
by means of an image of their bishop accompanied by an image of the facade of
their cathedral, with Reims in the axial position.
>
> are not all those windows replacements after the spiffy redecoration of the
cathedral that was undertaken during the First Collective Acute Psychotic
Episode, Jim?
>
> were there also "portraits" of the bishops in the abbey of St. Remi (or am i
hopelessly hallucinating).
>
> in the cathedral glass there was (or is) apparently a "portrait" of
Archbishop Henry of France (died c. 1175).
>
> i have forgotten --if i ever knew-- why that later 12th c. bishop would have
been included in the 13th c. glass.
>
> or was he at St. Remi?
>
> c
>
> (Confused in Bloomington)
>
> ________________________________________
> > From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
> culture [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Kay, Richard
[[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: February 12, 2013 9:32 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [M-R] Bishops as dean of an ecclesiastic province (WAS: Re:
> [M-R] transmission of news in early 15th-century western Europe)
> >
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> > culture
> >
> > Actually, Christopher, many French provinces had a dean of the
> > bishops, at
> least in the 13th century, when my research (ca. 1959) stopped. The basis
was most likely the seating order in a provincial council, plus the chapter as
the canonistic model of corporate structure. Anyway, here are some documented
cases.
> > Bishop of Clermont, dean of Bourges province. Ref. Mansi
> 24:1117-19. Also Lacger in Rev. hist. eccl. 16 (1930).
> > Bishop of Soissons, dean of Reims province. Ref. Varin,
> > Archives
> admin., 1:565, 600.
> > And (glory be!) bishop of Chartres, dean of Sens. Ref.
> > Martene,
> Antiq. Rit., 3 (1702 edn), p. 417. Also Mansi, 24:334; cf. 337-338.
> > By now somebody has no doubt done an exhaustive study of all
> > this,
> or should.
> > Richard Kay
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
> culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Christopher
Crockett
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 12:23 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [M-R] Bishops as dean of an ecclesiastic province (WAS: Re:
> [M-R] transmission of news in early 15th-century western Europe)
> >
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> > culture
> >
> > From: John Dillon <[log in to unmask]>
> >
> > > On 02/12/13, Christopher Crockett wrote:
> >
> > > "i've never come across this term/office "dean of the province" in
> > > France. i
> > assume that it was a peculiarly Western Fringe phenomenon? was this
"dean"
> > --who apparently also happened to be a bishop himself-- some kind of
> "vice-archbishop" for the province? what were his duties? when was this odd
practice established? and, why for? all information about these or any other
of the Bizarre Idiosyncrasies of the Western Fringe is always welcome to the
Unenlightened."
> >
> >
> > > Not entirely a "peculiarly Western Fringe phenomenon", unless by
> > > "Western
> > Fringe" brother Crockett refers not only -- as is his wont -- to the
> > British
> Isles but also to western portions of the German-ruled Imperium Romanum.
> >
> > well, technically speaking, the western portions of the I.R. would
> > have to
> be parts of the Eastern Fringe which is the same as the Western Fringe only,
you know, different.
> >
> > i mean, those poor folks out there were so confused that they didn't
> > even
> know which end of their major churches was the most important one, so they
made both ends round just to be sure not to make any mistakes...
> >
> > they were evidently Belt *and* Suspenders guys.
> >
> > just like those U.S. corporate moguls who give campaign money to both
> > the
> Dimmoecan & Repuglickum parties, covering their bets on both Tweedledee &
Tweedledumb.
> >
> > >Traditionally, the bishop of Toul was dean of the ecclesiastical
> > >province of
> > Trier. See (e.g.) this in the _Journal de la Société d'archéologie et
> > du
> comité du Musée lorrain_, 11 (1862), at pp. 237-38 (a Google Books
> > digitization):
> > > http://tinyurl.com/bfxpcm6
> >
> > > Here the dignity of dean of the ecclesiastical province seems to
> > > have been
> > largely honorary, giving the incumbent the duties of consecrating
> archbishops of Trier and of consecrating other bishops of the province when
the archbishop was unable to do so.
> >
> >
> > "largely honorary"?
> >
> > seems to me that "le droit d'exercer certaines fonctions du
> > métropolitain
> en cas d'empechement ou absence de cet archeveque" was a bit more than
"honorary"
> > --he either had the right to exercise these certain functions or he
didn't.
> > and, if he did, then, well, he did, exercise those functions.
> >
> > consecrating one's Archbishop was perhaps an "honor," but it was
> > certainly
> more than merely "honorary."
> >
> > i suppose that such an arrangement --having a kind of "vice-archbishop"
> makes a degree of sense (after all, *some*body had to consecrate the new
archbishop), and i have seen some references to suffragan bishops exercising
some functions (like the dedication of a church), filling in for the
Archbishop.
> >
> > but i've never seen a suffragan bishop specifically referred to as
> > being the
> "dean" of a province.
> >
> > which bishop was the "dean" of the Province of Sens?
> >
> > i have no idea.
> >
> > maybe it's mentioned somewhere in the Gallia Christiana vols. for that
> province, but i certainly have no memory of having seen a reference to such
a title.
> >
> > i wonder if there is any entry in DuCange for "vice-[achi]episcopus"
> > or
> somesuchlike term.
> >
> > or, for that matter, a section in his "diaconus" entry which covers
> > this
> Fringe usage, West or East.
> >
> > c
> >
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