medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: Madeleine Gray <[log in to unmask]>
> As ever you are a mine of information, Chris.
hi Maddy,
yes, well the thing to remember about mine fields of information is that they
can blow up in your face, leaving you more ignerint than when you started.
> What we have here ... in a little country far, far away
i skipped right over the "cetology" chapters in Moby Dick, so the only thing i
know about Whales is what i have read on this list, in the last few years.
>is (a) a political struggle between local rulers and invaders (the Normans)
to associate themselves with Cistercian foundations
yes, and quite "late" (by my standards) Cistercian foundations as well
--nothing much before 1200, is there?
by 1200, imHo, the Order was quite Over-the-Hill and Fat, having given up the
Ideals of the Founders in return for ripping off land by moving boundary
stones (i.e., Walter Map was *right*) and building quite beautiful buildings
in that new-fangled "Gothic" style which would have Scandalized St. Bernie
something awful.
in any event, the combination of 13th c. Cistercian and Lay politics sounds
like a quite Toxic Mix, to me --makes sorting out what was going on in France
in the 1140s look like... i donno, Pre-2000 U.S. politics.
but, Foundations is Foundations, and many (most?) of the essential elements
remained constant, through the centuries.
there's been quite a bit of work on the historical aspects of the Early
Cistercian foundations lately --a field Up with Which i have Scrupulously Not
Kept.
they seem to have made quite a Thing out of founding abbeys in places which
found themselves on the "border" --right on the borders of ecclesiastical or
lay governmental units.
were really, really In To playing one Authority off against another,
apparently.
at least, the Early Guys were.
and, Old Habits die Hard.
(do read Walter Map on their Act.)
>and (b) some elaborate tombs, usually without inscriptions and therefore
unattributable and undatable, which are assumed to be those of founders. (Also
some rather later tombs which can be identified as founders' kin.)
by inscriptions, presumably.
> Ascribing dates to the tomb carvings on the basis of typology, style of
decoration etc, is difficult because Wales has idiosyncratic styles,
*that's* rather charitably put.
>and within Wales there are also clear local differences. However, if I can
get clearer dates for some of the slabs on Cistercian sites I may be able to
work out from those. Colin Gresham did a lot of the work for north Wales back
in the 1960s but doubt has been cast since on a lot of his datings and they
may not work for south Wales anyway.
yes, well i wish you the Very Best, trying to sort all that mess out, Maddy.
using "style" to date things is difficult enough in a relatively coherent
place like 12th c. France --trying to sort out stuff like this
http://www.castlewales.com/valle_crucis07.jpg
in Marginal regions on the very Fringe of Civilization As We Know It would be
enough to drive one to Methodological Considerations of the sort which might
lead to recurrent Headaches.
might as well try Carbon-14 dating on those stones as attempt any sort of
"stylistic analysis" --although, "typology" sounds like something a bit
different and, potentially, more promising.
you might have a look at George Kubler's little book, _The Shape of Time:
Reflections on the History of Things_, which deals somewhat with trying to do
the impossible with undated and (essentially) undatable sequences of Objects
(his field was Pre-Columbian, and many of his paradigms come from such things
as Pre-Inca pottery, which, now that i think on it, looks a lot like your
tombstones there).
c
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