medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I seem to recall some similar material in Richard Marks, Image and
Devotion in Late Medieval England, specifically regarding candles to be
burned before images in, mostly parish, churches. I suspect that this
may have been a "problem" similar to monasteries bunching up votive
masses rather than performing them all individually - convenience over
scrupulousness.
Jim
John Dillon wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> Interesting. Thompson's examples (as one may have read by now: twelve pages is not a lot) are from Lombardy, Emilia-Romagna, Tuscany, and Umbria. Without -- to judge from Andrew's summary -- duplicating any of Vauchez's instances (and lacking V.'s interest in uncanonized saints), they yield the same general picture. Are there no similar contributions based on French material?
>
> Best again,
> John Dillon
>
> On Monday, October 19, 2009, at 9:09 pm, Andrew Larsen wrote:
>
>
>> Cecelia,
>> The article in question is "Patronage of Saints and Civic Religion in
>> the Italy of the Communes" in The Laity in the Middle Ages (Notre
>> Dame, 1993) (I think it might be a reprinted article, but I'm not sure).
>> At Orvieto, in 1350, the city sent a 50 lb candle to the cathedral
>> for the Virgin and a second smaller one (weight unspecified in the
>> article) to the cathedral for a local saint. The Dominican house
>> received 2 20 lb candles, one for Dominic and one for a local saint.
>> The Franciscans received a similar pair of candles, and the
>> Augustinians 1 candle. Statutes required that the candles remain in
>> place for 1 full year, when they would be replaced.
>> In 1314, Orvieto issued a statute specifying that its candles "should
>> serve exclusively to illuminate the body of Christ and should remain
>> lit until the end of the Elevation." If a candle was not kept for a
>> whole year, it was not to be replaced. A notary was required to visit
>> the church every three months to ensure the candle was in the proper location.
>> In 1315, Poggibonsi declared a candle-lit procession for a local
>> saint. Beginning in 1321, the town annually calculated the number of
>> candles to be used, which varied between 200 and 500. They were
>> donated to the local Franciscan house. An equal number of merchants
>> were required to donate candles and participate in the procession.
>> The number of candles dropped from 500 in 1348 to 350 in 1350.
>> Also in Poggibonsi, on the feast of a local saint, the guilds
>> conducted a torch-lit procession to the saint's church and then
>> donated the torches, on penalty of a fine. The next day, the town
>> presented wax to the same church.
>> In 1451, Amandola decreed an annual donation of a 50-solidi candle.
>> After 1471, the value of the candle went up to 10 pounds.
>> In 1391, Spoleto decreed a donation of 30 lbs of wax every year to
>> the Dominican church, although in 1397 this was reduced to several (4,
>> I think)candles of 3 lbs each. Two more candles of equal weight were
>> given to another church. The remaining 12 lbs of wax was given to
>> clergy who participated.
>> Most of the saints involved were uncanonized saints, so the towns in
>> question were giving civic approval to these saints and thereby
>> skirting church control of canonization.
>> So to answer your questions, it seems that the candles were expected
>> to be used, although the requirement to check up suggests that there
>> was a worry they wouldn't be used. At Orvieto, the town tried to
>> ensure exactly when the candles were used during the service, and
>> exactly where they would be shedding their light. The economic value
>> of the candles was clearly an issue in some cases, since at Amandola
>> they increased the cost, while at Spoleto, because of quarrels between
>> churches, they decided to rebalance how the candles/wax was being
>> given away. The fact that Poggibonsi fined those who failed to donate
>> their candles suggests that some people resisted the required
>> donation. So although the value of the candles was symbolic and
>> practical (Orvieto did want them used for lighting) to the town
>> government, they were aware of the economic aspects of the issue and
>> tried to control them.
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> Andrew E. Larsen
>>
>> On Oct 19, 2009, at 7:49 PM, John Dillon wrote:
>>
>>
>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>>>
>>> Dear Cecilia,
>>>
>>> It's a little hard to get answers to these question when we don't
>>>
>> have the title or venue of Vauchez's article. But if you take the
>> time to look at the pertinent pages in Augustine Thompson's book via
>> the link I provided in my previous post, you will find answers to some
>> of your questions, albeit not in enough quantity or detail to permit
>> useful generalizations.
>>
>>> Best again,
>>> John Dillon
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, October 19, 2009 7:28 pm, Cecilia Gaposchkin wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>>>>
>>>> OK, Good. But what was the value of the candle? Did the church use these
>>>> candles? Were they used to light the church? Was the wax sold for
>>>> income? It
>>>> clearly had alot of symbolic capital. What I'm not getting is the ultimate
>>>> value of the votive object. Was it practical? Economic? purely symbolic?
>>>> Were these candle used? lighted?
>>>>
>>>> cecilia
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 8:15 PM, Andrew Larsen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>>>>>
>>>>> Andre Vauchez has an interesting article about how Italian cities managed
>>>>> saints cults partly through donations of candles. In at least one
>>>>>
>> city,
>>
>>>>> they sent an official around to check if the church in question was
>>>>>
>>>> keeping
>>>>
>>>>> the city's (massive) candle on its altar all year. Those that
>>>>>
>>>> didn't were
>>>>
>>>>> penalized. The gift of the candle was a sign of official approval
>>>>>
>>>> by the
>>>>
>>>>> city.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrew E. Larsen
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 19, 2009, at 6:54 PM, Dr Jim Bugslag wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>>>>
>> culture
>>
>>>>>> This is a large subject, and I have never seen any really good
>>>>>>
>>>> study of
>>>>
>>>>>> it, but you are certainly right about the votive use of candles.
>>>>>>
>>>> It was
>>>>
>>>>>> common for someone to be "measured for a candle" in relation to an
>>>>>>
>>>> expected
>>>>
>>>>>> miracle cure at the shrine of a saint, the candle in question being
>>>>>>
>>>> either
>>>>
>>>>>> the length of the person or their weight. There were also
>>>>>>
>>>> trindles, which
>>>>
>>>>>> were long tapers, usually wound into a skein. The city of Chartres
>>>>>>
>>>> annually
>>>>
>>>>>> offered one to the cathedral that was as long as the circumference
>>>>>>
>>>> of the
>>>>
>>>>>> city walls. And there were all sorts of miraculous candles, as
>>>>>>
>>>> well. I
>>>>
>>>>>> believe that S. Maria Maggiore in Rome claimed one of four candles
>>>>>>
>>>> that were
>>>>
>>>>>> believed to have descended from heaven around the Virgin Mary at
>>>>>>
>>>> the birth
>>>>
>>>>>> of Christ, and in the early 11th century, the Virgin showed up in
>>>>>>
>>>> person at
>>>>
>>>>>> Arras, leaving the Holy Candle there, with instructions on how to
>>>>>>
>>>> use its
>>>>
>>>>>> wax to cure the mal des ardents. It was usually believed that such
>>>>>>
>>>> candles
>>>>
>>>>>> could burn without being consumed, and other miraculous candles
>>>>>>
>>>> were often
>>>>
>>>>>> created using bits of their wax.
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cecilia Gaposchkin wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>>>>>>
>>>> culture
>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>> I'm just now catching up on this thread, and it catches my attention
>>>>>>> because I have just been reading some miracle and pilgrimage
>>>>>>>
>>>> stories, and
>>>>
>>>>>>> everyone is always pledging candles, and giving candles, and
>>>>>>>
>>>> buying candles
>>>>
>>>>>>> - candles of quite enormous proportions: candles the length of the
>>>>>>>
>>>> tomb,
>>>>
>>>>>>> candles the length of a sick son, candles the length and shape of
>>>>>>>
>>>> a lame
>>>>
>>>>>>> leg, and so forth - to the shrine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When, as a graduate student, I used to lecture at the Cloisters,
>>>>>>>
>> I
>>
>>>> had
>>>>
>>>>>>> some pithy and almost certainly inaccurate line about the desire
>>>>>>>
>>>> for light
>>>>
>>>>>>> in churches, the "donations" of candles and [ahem, this is where
>>>>>>>
>>>> it becomes
>>>>
>>>>>>> methodologically dubious], and appearance of stained glass with Gothic
>>>>>>> architecture and the "desire" for "light".
>>>>>>> I'm not really asking for an explanation of that crazy argument.
>>>>>>>
>> But
>>
>>>>>>> rather, if we're talking about medieval lighting, can anyone talk
>>>>>>>
>>>> abit about
>>>>
>>>>>>> the function/economics/aesthetics/and/osprituality of the "candle"
>>>>>>>
>>>> in the
>>>>
>>>>>>> medieval churches. It seems alot of people were spending alot of
>>>>>>>
>>>> money -
>>>>
>>>>>>> even money they didn't have much of - on candles.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> cecilia
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 12:18 PM, John McCulloh <[log in to unmask] <mailto:
>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion
>>>>>>>
>> and
>>
>>>>>>> culture
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I had just looked up the reference to suggest the same article.
>>>>>>> It is fascinating reading. Ekirch presents evidence that, before
>>>>>>> the advent of cheap electrical lighting, people went to bed at
>>>>>>> dusk woke up around midnight to relieve themselves, eat and
>>>>>>> socialize, and then nodded off for their "second sleep."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For medievalists it suggests that monks getting up in the middle
>>>>>>> of the night were not really practicing asceticism. They were
>>>>>>> following a typical sleep pattern. The monastic element in their
>>>>>>> vigils was their prayer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John M. McCulloh
>>>>>>> Professor Office
>>>>>>> tel: 785-532-0373
>>>>>>> Department of History Deptal
>>>>>>> tel: 785-532-6730
>>>>>>> Eisenhower Hall FAX:
>>>>>>> 785-532-7004
>>>>>>> Kansas State University
>>>>>>> Manhattan, KS 66506-1002
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Shannon McSheffrey" <[log in to unmask]
>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 8:21:35 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada
>>>>>>>
>>>> Central
>>>>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Medieval lighting
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion
>>>>>>>
>> and
>>
>>>>>>> culture
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On preindustrial sleeping patterns, some might find this article
>>>>>>> interesting: A. Roger Ekirch, "Sleep We Have Lost: Pre-industrial
>>>>>>> Slumber in
>>>>>>> the British Isles," The American Historical Review 106:2
>>>>>>>
>>>> (April, 2001)
>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/ahr/106.2/ah000343.html.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Shannon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dr. Shannon McSheffrey
>>>>>>> Professor and Chair, Department of History
>>>>>>> Concordia University
>>>>>>> 1455 de Maisonneuve Blvd. W.
>>>>>>> Montreal, Quebec CANADA H3G 1M8
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [log in to unmask] <
>>>>>>>
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