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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture I seem to recall some similar material in Richard Marks, Image and Devotion in Late Medieval England, specifically regarding candles to be burned before images in, mostly parish, churches. I suspect that this may have been a "problem" similar to monasteries bunching up votive masses rather than performing them all individually - convenience over scrupulousness. Jim John Dillon wrote: > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > Interesting. Thompson's examples (as one may have read by now: twelve pages is not a lot) are from Lombardy, Emilia-Romagna, Tuscany, and Umbria. Without -- to judge from Andrew's summary -- duplicating any of Vauchez's instances (and lacking V.'s interest in uncanonized saints), they yield the same general picture. Are there no similar contributions based on French material? > > Best again, > John Dillon > > On Monday, October 19, 2009, at 9:09 pm, Andrew Larsen wrote: > > >> Cecelia, >> The article in question is "Patronage of Saints and Civic Religion in >> the Italy of the Communes" in The Laity in the Middle Ages (Notre >> Dame, 1993) (I think it might be a reprinted article, but I'm not sure). >> At Orvieto, in 1350, the city sent a 50 lb candle to the cathedral >> for the Virgin and a second smaller one (weight unspecified in the >> article) to the cathedral for a local saint. The Dominican house >> received 2 20 lb candles, one for Dominic and one for a local saint. >> The Franciscans received a similar pair of candles, and the >> Augustinians 1 candle. Statutes required that the candles remain in >> place for 1 full year, when they would be replaced. >> In 1314, Orvieto issued a statute specifying that its candles "should >> serve exclusively to illuminate the body of Christ and should remain >> lit until the end of the Elevation." If a candle was not kept for a >> whole year, it was not to be replaced. A notary was required to visit >> the church every three months to ensure the candle was in the proper location. >> In 1315, Poggibonsi declared a candle-lit procession for a local >> saint. Beginning in 1321, the town annually calculated the number of >> candles to be used, which varied between 200 and 500. They were >> donated to the local Franciscan house. An equal number of merchants >> were required to donate candles and participate in the procession. >> The number of candles dropped from 500 in 1348 to 350 in 1350. >> Also in Poggibonsi, on the feast of a local saint, the guilds >> conducted a torch-lit procession to the saint's church and then >> donated the torches, on penalty of a fine. The next day, the town >> presented wax to the same church. >> In 1451, Amandola decreed an annual donation of a 50-solidi candle. >> After 1471, the value of the candle went up to 10 pounds. >> In 1391, Spoleto decreed a donation of 30 lbs of wax every year to >> the Dominican church, although in 1397 this was reduced to several (4, >> I think)candles of 3 lbs each. Two more candles of equal weight were >> given to another church. The remaining 12 lbs of wax was given to >> clergy who participated. >> Most of the saints involved were uncanonized saints, so the towns in >> question were giving civic approval to these saints and thereby >> skirting church control of canonization. >> So to answer your questions, it seems that the candles were expected >> to be used, although the requirement to check up suggests that there >> was a worry they wouldn't be used. At Orvieto, the town tried to >> ensure exactly when the candles were used during the service, and >> exactly where they would be shedding their light. The economic value >> of the candles was clearly an issue in some cases, since at Amandola >> they increased the cost, while at Spoleto, because of quarrels between >> churches, they decided to rebalance how the candles/wax was being >> given away. The fact that Poggibonsi fined those who failed to donate >> their candles suggests that some people resisted the required >> donation. So although the value of the candles was symbolic and >> practical (Orvieto did want them used for lighting) to the town >> government, they were aware of the economic aspects of the issue and >> tried to control them. >> Hope this helps. >> >> Andrew E. Larsen >> >> On Oct 19, 2009, at 7:49 PM, John Dillon wrote: >> >> >>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture >>> >>> Dear Cecilia, >>> >>> It's a little hard to get answers to these question when we don't >>> >> have the title or venue of Vauchez's article. But if you take the >> time to look at the pertinent pages in Augustine Thompson's book via >> the link I provided in my previous post, you will find answers to some >> of your questions, albeit not in enough quantity or detail to permit >> useful generalizations. >> >>> Best again, >>> John Dillon >>> >>> >>> On Monday, October 19, 2009 7:28 pm, Cecilia Gaposchkin wrote: >>> >>> >>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture >>>> >>>> OK, Good. But what was the value of the candle? Did the church use these >>>> candles? Were they used to light the church? Was the wax sold for >>>> income? It >>>> clearly had alot of symbolic capital. What I'm not getting is the ultimate >>>> value of the votive object. Was it practical? Economic? purely symbolic? >>>> Were these candle used? lighted? >>>> >>>> cecilia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 8:15 PM, Andrew Larsen <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture >>>>> >>>>> Andre Vauchez has an interesting article about how Italian cities managed >>>>> saints cults partly through donations of candles. In at least one >>>>> >> city, >> >>>>> they sent an official around to check if the church in question was >>>>> >>>> keeping >>>> >>>>> the city's (massive) candle on its altar all year. Those that >>>>> >>>> didn't were >>>> >>>>> penalized. The gift of the candle was a sign of official approval >>>>> >>>> by the >>>> >>>>> city. >>>>> >>>>> Andrew E. Larsen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Oct 19, 2009, at 6:54 PM, Dr Jim Bugslag wrote: >>>>> >>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and >>>>> >> culture >> >>>>>> This is a large subject, and I have never seen any really good >>>>>> >>>> study of >>>> >>>>>> it, but you are certainly right about the votive use of candles. >>>>>> >>>> It was >>>> >>>>>> common for someone to be "measured for a candle" in relation to an >>>>>> >>>> expected >>>> >>>>>> miracle cure at the shrine of a saint, the candle in question being >>>>>> >>>> either >>>> >>>>>> the length of the person or their weight. There were also >>>>>> >>>> trindles, which >>>> >>>>>> were long tapers, usually wound into a skein. The city of Chartres >>>>>> >>>> annually >>>> >>>>>> offered one to the cathedral that was as long as the circumference >>>>>> >>>> of the >>>> >>>>>> city walls. And there were all sorts of miraculous candles, as >>>>>> >>>> well. I >>>> >>>>>> believe that S. Maria Maggiore in Rome claimed one of four candles >>>>>> >>>> that were >>>> >>>>>> believed to have descended from heaven around the Virgin Mary at >>>>>> >>>> the birth >>>> >>>>>> of Christ, and in the early 11th century, the Virgin showed up in >>>>>> >>>> person at >>>> >>>>>> Arras, leaving the Holy Candle there, with instructions on how to >>>>>> >>>> use its >>>> >>>>>> wax to cure the mal des ardents. It was usually believed that such >>>>>> >>>> candles >>>> >>>>>> could burn without being consumed, and other miraculous candles >>>>>> >>>> were often >>>> >>>>>> created using bits of their wax. >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Jim >>>>>> >>>>>> Cecilia Gaposchkin wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and >>>>>>> >>>> culture >>>> >>>>>>> Hello all, >>>>>>> I'm just now catching up on this thread, and it catches my attention >>>>>>> because I have just been reading some miracle and pilgrimage >>>>>>> >>>> stories, and >>>> >>>>>>> everyone is always pledging candles, and giving candles, and >>>>>>> >>>> buying candles >>>> >>>>>>> - candles of quite enormous proportions: candles the length of the >>>>>>> >>>> tomb, >>>> >>>>>>> candles the length of a sick son, candles the length and shape of >>>>>>> >>>> a lame >>>> >>>>>>> leg, and so forth - to the shrine. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When, as a graduate student, I used to lecture at the Cloisters, >>>>>>> >> I >> >>>> had >>>> >>>>>>> some pithy and almost certainly inaccurate line about the desire >>>>>>> >>>> for light >>>> >>>>>>> in churches, the "donations" of candles and [ahem, this is where >>>>>>> >>>> it becomes >>>> >>>>>>> methodologically dubious], and appearance of stained glass with Gothic >>>>>>> architecture and the "desire" for "light". >>>>>>> I'm not really asking for an explanation of that crazy argument. >>>>>>> >> But >> >>>>>>> rather, if we're talking about medieval lighting, can anyone talk >>>>>>> >>>> abit about >>>> >>>>>>> the function/economics/aesthetics/and/osprituality of the "candle" >>>>>>> >>>> in the >>>> >>>>>>> medieval churches. It seems alot of people were spending alot of >>>>>>> >>>> money - >>>> >>>>>>> even money they didn't have much of - on candles. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> cecilia >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 12:18 PM, John McCulloh <[log in to unmask] <mailto: >>>>>>> [log in to unmask]>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion >>>>>>> >> and >> >>>>>>> culture >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I had just looked up the reference to suggest the same article. >>>>>>> It is fascinating reading. Ekirch presents evidence that, before >>>>>>> the advent of cheap electrical lighting, people went to bed at >>>>>>> dusk woke up around midnight to relieve themselves, eat and >>>>>>> socialize, and then nodded off for their "second sleep." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For medievalists it suggests that monks getting up in the middle >>>>>>> of the night were not really practicing asceticism. They were >>>>>>> following a typical sleep pattern. The monastic element in their >>>>>>> vigils was their prayer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John M. McCulloh >>>>>>> Professor Office >>>>>>> tel: 785-532-0373 >>>>>>> Department of History Deptal >>>>>>> tel: 785-532-6730 >>>>>>> Eisenhower Hall FAX: >>>>>>> 785-532-7004 >>>>>>> Kansas State University >>>>>>> Manhattan, KS 66506-1002 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Shannon McSheffrey" <[log in to unmask] >>>>>>> < >>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>>>>> < >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 8:21:35 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada >>>>>>> >>>> Central >>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Medieval lighting >>>>>>> >>>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion >>>>>>> >> and >> >>>>>>> culture >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On preindustrial sleeping patterns, some might find this article >>>>>>> interesting: A. Roger Ekirch, "Sleep We Have Lost: Pre-industrial >>>>>>> Slumber in >>>>>>> the British Isles," The American Historical Review 106:2 >>>>>>> >>>> (April, 2001) >>>> >>>>>>> http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/ahr/106.2/ah000343.html. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shannon >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dr. Shannon McSheffrey >>>>>>> Professor and Chair, Department of History >>>>>>> Concordia University >>>>>>> 1455 de Maisonneuve Blvd. W. >>>>>>> Montreal, Quebec CANADA H3G 1M8 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [log in to unmask] < >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ********************************************************************** >>>>>>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR >>>>>>> >>>> NAME >>>> >>>>>>> to: [log in to unmask] < >>>>>>> To send a message to the list, address it to: >>>>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>>>> < >>>>>>> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion >>>>>>> to: [log in to unmask] < >>>>>>> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, >>>>>>> >>>> write to: >>>> >>>>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>>>> < >>>>>>> For further information, visit our web site: >>>>>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ********************************************************************** >>>>>>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR >>>>>>> >>>> NAME >>>> >>>>>>> to: [log in to unmask] < >>>>>>> To send a message to the list, address it to: >>>>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>>>> < >>>>>>> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion >>>>>>> to: [log in to unmask] < >>>>>>> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, >>>>>>> >>>> write to: >>>> >>>>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>>>> < >>>>>>> For further information, visit our web site: >>>>>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> ********************************************************************** >>>> To >>>> >>>>>>> join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME >>>>>>> >>>> to: >>>> >>>>>>> [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it >>>>>>> >>>> to: >>>> >>>>>>> [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: >>>>>>> leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report >>>>>>> problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: medieval-religion- >>>>>>> [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: >>>>>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> ********************************************************************** >>>>>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME >>>>>> to: [log in to unmask] >>>>>> To send a message to the list, address it to: >>>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>>> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion >>>>>> to: [log in to unmask] >>>>>> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write >>>>>> >>>> to: >>>> >>>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>>> For further information, visit our web site: >>>>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> ********************************************************************** >>>>> >>>>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME >>>>> to: [log in to unmask] >>>>> To send a message to the list, address it to: >>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion >>>>> to: [log in to unmask] >>>>> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write >>>>> >> to: >> >>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>> For further information, visit our web site: >>>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>> ********************************************************************** >>>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME >>>> to: [log in to unmask] >>>> To send a message to the list, address it to: >>>> [log in to unmask] >>>> To leave the list, send the 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