What about Hollywood as ISA? When Tarantino and Eli Roth tell us Hostel
is 'cool' what happens when we hear this call because these are the only
films that we see? ""Cool" then becomes a signifier for what they tell
us rather than what we decide. Aesthetics aside, elitism aside the real
problem becomes when you are asked to imagine what a good film is, and
the only thing you can imagine is "Dude where's my car". (These people
have to choose governments as well)
rwm
-----Original Message-----
From: Film-Philosophy Salon [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Aaron Smuts
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 11:37 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: FILM-PHILOSOPHY elitism
Can someone please explain what's going on here. What exactly do
claims about objectivity in aesthetic judgments have to do with
elitism? Surely, someone can think that some movie is better than
another without adopting some kind of morally pernicious beliefs about
the value of groups of people. All you you have to be committed to is
the claim that some aesthetic judgments are better than others. I
don't see why that commits you to elitism.
. . .
Here's a claim: "Some artworks are better than others."
Here's another: "Some movies are better than others."
These are both probably right, but trivially. "Better" here is really
vague. When we get down to claims such as "Citizen Cane is better
than 'Dude Where's My Car'", I'm not sure what to say. It seems
right, but kind of unfair. It attributes goals to "Dude" that it
didn't have. "Dude" wasn't trying to comment on the inscrutability of
human motivation. (I assume that Rosebud was not the answer! . . .)
So, it doesn't make too much sense to compare them. They have
radically different goals. It's not elitist to say that "Dude" should
have had other goals. No, it's just silly. Why should everything
have the same goals? . . .
(This doesn't spare those from condemnation that choose nothing but
the "Dude". But that's another story.)
If we compare works that seem to have similar goals, such as arousing
fear and disgust, then we might be able to make more sense. But
rankings are still fragile. . . . If we can get a sense of what the
goals of the work might be, then we can get a lot more agreement
around claims such as: "'Don't Look Now' is a great horror movie.
Here's why . . ."
And clearly critics are better than others. Someone with no
experience in a genre, can't assess originality. That's fairly clear.
. . . .
Does any of this get you objectivity? I doubt it. (I can explain why
later. . . ) But I don't see how thinking that it might commits one
to elitism. That's an extreme charge. I doubt that these kinds of
things come so heavily politically weighted. Sure they can go hand in
had, but they mustn't always.
Aaron
On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Frank, Michael <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> do we really need to go down this road yet again? . . .
>
>
> as someone who takes film seriously i feel frustrated [and sometimes
> inadequate] by my inability to "get" these films that others i respect
find
> so magnificent . . . but i think i do "get" kane, and can offer lots
of
> reason why it's of more historical than artistic interest - which i
would do
> except that using the term "artistic interest" as a starting point
falls
> into the same trap i'm trying to stay clear of
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Film-Philosophy Salon [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Hi,
>
> two cheers for elitism. Just because I can kick a ball does not give
me the
> automatic right to play for Manchester United. Hard
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