certainly, but that's why it's always interesting to me when the music
complements the content. in fact, with the right reading, it can
almost always be the case.
KS
On 04/06/07, Halvard Johnson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> I'd certainly agree with much of this, esp. when you put it
> most broadly toward the end. For me, the attribute of music
> I like to see poetry aspiring to is its nondiscursiveness. It's
> doesn't really have to be *about* anything, and when it
> seems to be *about* something, that discursive quality is
> the least of it.
>
> Hal
>
> "Context is everything that content is not."
> --Anon.
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> [log in to unmask]
> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>
>
>
> On Jun 4, 2007, at 10:53 AM, kasper salonen wrote:
>
> > haha, wonderful quote Hal.
> > I think 'music' in this sense is what the artistic intent of schemae
> > like metre & rhyme patterns has been from the beginning; there's the
> > additional functions of the poet placing himself in a caste simply
> > through vocabulary, linking a poem to a latinate tradition, giving
> > poetry ligitimacy through structure &c.; but the essential thing, at
> > least the clearest EFFECT of metre, is in removing (perhaps
> > 'detaching'?) the voice of a poem from the prose of a spoken
> > conversation, the stylistic form of an anecdote. this has some
> > potentially far-flung artistic aspirations attached to it, involving
> > an attempt to cement poetry as something incomparable to anything
> > common. but for me, i.e. the related principle that I try always to go
> > by when writing, is to 'elevate' poetic language from common language
> > in such a manner & to such a degree that the common language isn't
> > lost, but also so that the poetic diction doesn't remove itself from
> > the power (which can be good in any form, flaccid or ferocious) being
> > communicated.
> >
> > now this elevation has primarily, especially in narrow or traditional
> > views, to do with employing specialised imagery, metaphor, reference,
> > symbolism. these are important, but are much more delicate & difficult
> > when compared to inventive & satisfying PHONICS; because metaphors
> > need to be subtle, but phonics do not: at least not in the same sense.
> > perhaps what I mean can be described rather by saying that phonics
> > have to flow & ebb & bounce & shatter in complete harmony with
> > everything else, with syntax & content; while metaphors are really the
> > 'core', the *meaning* that exists in the cool sol underneath all the
> > evident techniques.
> >
> > this is all a long-winded way of saying that musicality is, to me,
> > language used in association with aesthetics as well as meaning. when
> > a poem recounts an anecdote dully, it doesn't matter to me whether the
> > meaning of the anecdote is symbolic or intriguing or not. the task of
> > a poem is not JUST to be meaningful, but to also LOOK & SOUND
> > meaningful; & to look & sound beautiful. for this we have imagery &
> > phonics respectively; images & sounds working together = music.
> >
> > KS
> >
> > On 04/06/07, Halvard Johnson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >> I agree with Anny and Doug, Kasper. I'm not sure what you
> >> mean by "music."
> >>
> >> "I don't know what music is."
> >> --Ludvig van Beethoven
> >>
> >> Halvard Johnson
> >> ================
> >> [log in to unmask]
> >> [log in to unmask]
> >> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
> >>
> >> On Jun 4, 2007, at 9:59 AM, Douglas Barbour wrote:
> >>
> >> > I agree with Anny that this response was interesting & thoughtful,
> >> > Kasper, and found your comments on your own approach intriguing.
> >> >
> >> > I'm not quite sure what you mean by detached. I would tend to use
> >> > the term 'abstract' perhaps.
> >> >
> >> > I do feel, in my own case, that the lyric 'I' can itself be a kind
> >> > of dodge, or at least that it carries a lot of cultural baggage
> >> > that might force the poem into certain responses....
> >> >
> >> > But the result, in a poem where the 'I' doesn't appear, need not be
> >> > 'detached,' & I also recognize that my desire to avoid the 'I' is
> >> > mine, & read a lot of poems in which the poet uses the "I"
> >> > brilliantly, so it's my problem, not poetry's or other poets'....
> >> >
> >> > Anyway, it's not a bad thing to be thinking about the theory...
> >> >
> >> > Doug
> >> > On 4-Jun-07, at 1:40 AM, kasper salonen wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> my own writing has a way of being rather detached, & I think
> >> this has
> >> >> to do with my conception of poetry in general AS somewhat
> >> detached.
> >> > Douglas Barbour
> >> > 11655 - 72 Avenue NW
> >> > Edmonton Ab T6G 0B9
> >> > (780) 436 3320
> >> > http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/
> >> >
> >> > Latest book: Continuations (with Sheila E Murphy)
> >> > http://www.uap.ualberta.ca/UAP.asp?LID=41&bookID=664
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Art has to be forgotten: Beauty must be realized.
> >> >
> >> > Piet Mondrian
> >>
>
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