Sound has always mattered to me. Poetic language is for me sensual language,
where the carnal properties of speech and scripting are foregrounded (how a
poem looks on a page matters to me also).
I beg to disagree on the hoary question of the "lyric I' though. In many
poetics, the lyric "I" is hardly an unpackaged and uninterrogated "place"
and is a notion many women use to dismantle the given self with both
intelligence and passion. In such cases, it's hardly a "dodge"; it's the
opposite, a full-on confrontation with experience and thought, with no space
for evasion. (It often seems to me that the affectation of impersonality is
much more of a dodge.) Think Ann Carson, or Helene Cixous. I'm presently
reading Marguerite Yourcenar, (a prose writer perhaps though her language is
so vivid, intelligent and dense I'm not sure where the border is) who
explodes it into, well, I don't know, some of the most searing writing I've
read.
Also, it's a mistake to assume the lyric I is not a fiction. I being a
fiction always. The fixed eye, the entitled gaze, most of all. But this
assumed "I" is precisely what these kinds of poetics interrogate and take
apart.
xA
On 6/5/07, kasper salonen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> certainly, but that's why it's always interesting to me when the music
> complements the content. in fact, with the right reading, it can
> almost always be the case.
>
> KS
>
> On 04/06/07, Halvard Johnson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > I'd certainly agree with much of this, esp. when you put it
> > most broadly toward the end. For me, the attribute of music
> > I like to see poetry aspiring to is its nondiscursiveness. It's
> > doesn't really have to be *about* anything, and when it
> > seems to be *about* something, that discursive quality is
> > the least of it.
> >
> > Hal
> >
> > "Context is everything that content is not."
> > --Anon.
> > Halvard Johnson
> > ================
> > [log in to unmask]
> > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
> > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> > http://www.hamiltonstone.org
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jun 4, 2007, at 10:53 AM, kasper salonen wrote:
> >
> > > haha, wonderful quote Hal.
> > > I think 'music' in this sense is what the artistic intent of schemae
> > > like metre & rhyme patterns has been from the beginning; there's the
> > > additional functions of the poet placing himself in a caste simply
> > > through vocabulary, linking a poem to a latinate tradition, giving
> > > poetry ligitimacy through structure &c.; but the essential thing, at
> > > least the clearest EFFECT of metre, is in removing (perhaps
> > > 'detaching'?) the voice of a poem from the prose of a spoken
> > > conversation, the stylistic form of an anecdote. this has some
> > > potentially far-flung artistic aspirations attached to it, involving
> > > an attempt to cement poetry as something incomparable to anything
> > > common. but for me, i.e. the related principle that I try always to go
> > > by when writing, is to 'elevate' poetic language from common language
> > > in such a manner & to such a degree that the common language isn't
> > > lost, but also so that the poetic diction doesn't remove itself from
> > > the power (which can be good in any form, flaccid or ferocious) being
> > > communicated.
> > >
> > > now this elevation has primarily, especially in narrow or traditional
> > > views, to do with employing specialised imagery, metaphor, reference,
> > > symbolism. these are important, but are much more delicate & difficult
> > > when compared to inventive & satisfying PHONICS; because metaphors
> > > need to be subtle, but phonics do not: at least not in the same sense.
> > > perhaps what I mean can be described rather by saying that phonics
> > > have to flow & ebb & bounce & shatter in complete harmony with
> > > everything else, with syntax & content; while metaphors are really the
> > > 'core', the *meaning* that exists in the cool sol underneath all the
> > > evident techniques.
> > >
> > > this is all a long-winded way of saying that musicality is, to me,
> > > language used in association with aesthetics as well as meaning. when
> > > a poem recounts an anecdote dully, it doesn't matter to me whether the
> > > meaning of the anecdote is symbolic or intriguing or not. the task of
> > > a poem is not JUST to be meaningful, but to also LOOK & SOUND
> > > meaningful; & to look & sound beautiful. for this we have imagery &
> > > phonics respectively; images & sounds working together = music.
> > >
> > > KS
> > >
> > > On 04/06/07, Halvard Johnson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >> I agree with Anny and Doug, Kasper. I'm not sure what you
> > >> mean by "music."
> > >>
> > >> "I don't know what music is."
> > >> --Ludvig van Beethoven
> > >>
> > >> Halvard Johnson
> > >> ================
> > >> [log in to unmask]
> > >> [log in to unmask]
> > >> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> > >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> > >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> > >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
> > >>
> > >> On Jun 4, 2007, at 9:59 AM, Douglas Barbour wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > I agree with Anny that this response was interesting & thoughtful,
> > >> > Kasper, and found your comments on your own approach intriguing.
> > >> >
> > >> > I'm not quite sure what you mean by detached. I would tend to use
> > >> > the term 'abstract' perhaps.
> > >> >
> > >> > I do feel, in my own case, that the lyric 'I' can itself be a kind
> > >> > of dodge, or at least that it carries a lot of cultural baggage
> > >> > that might force the poem into certain responses....
> > >> >
> > >> > But the result, in a poem where the 'I' doesn't appear, need not be
> > >> > 'detached,' & I also recognize that my desire to avoid the 'I' is
> > >> > mine, & read a lot of poems in which the poet uses the "I"
> > >> > brilliantly, so it's my problem, not poetry's or other poets'....
> > >> >
> > >> > Anyway, it's not a bad thing to be thinking about the theory...
> > >> >
> > >> > Doug
> > >> > On 4-Jun-07, at 1:40 AM, kasper salonen wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> my own writing has a way of being rather detached, & I think
> > >> this has
> > >> >> to do with my conception of poetry in general AS somewhat
> > >> detached.
> > >> > Douglas Barbour
> > >> > 11655 - 72 Avenue NW
> > >> > Edmonton Ab T6G 0B9
> > >> > (780) 436 3320
> > >> > http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/
> > >> >
> > >> > Latest book: Continuations (with Sheila E Murphy)
> > >> > http://www.uap.ualberta.ca/UAP.asp?LID=41&bookID=664
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Art has to be forgotten: Beauty must be realized.
> > >> >
> > >> > Piet Mondrian
> > >>
> >
>
--
Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au
Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com
Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com
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