I'd certainly agree with much of this, esp. when you put it
most broadly toward the end. For me, the attribute of music
I like to see poetry aspiring to is its nondiscursiveness. It's
doesn't really have to be *about* anything, and when it
seems to be *about* something, that discursive quality is
the least of it.
Hal
"Context is everything that content is not."
--Anon.
Halvard Johnson
================
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On Jun 4, 2007, at 10:53 AM, kasper salonen wrote:
> haha, wonderful quote Hal.
> I think 'music' in this sense is what the artistic intent of schemae
> like metre & rhyme patterns has been from the beginning; there's the
> additional functions of the poet placing himself in a caste simply
> through vocabulary, linking a poem to a latinate tradition, giving
> poetry ligitimacy through structure &c.; but the essential thing, at
> least the clearest EFFECT of metre, is in removing (perhaps
> 'detaching'?) the voice of a poem from the prose of a spoken
> conversation, the stylistic form of an anecdote. this has some
> potentially far-flung artistic aspirations attached to it, involving
> an attempt to cement poetry as something incomparable to anything
> common. but for me, i.e. the related principle that I try always to go
> by when writing, is to 'elevate' poetic language from common language
> in such a manner & to such a degree that the common language isn't
> lost, but also so that the poetic diction doesn't remove itself from
> the power (which can be good in any form, flaccid or ferocious) being
> communicated.
>
> now this elevation has primarily, especially in narrow or traditional
> views, to do with employing specialised imagery, metaphor, reference,
> symbolism. these are important, but are much more delicate & difficult
> when compared to inventive & satisfying PHONICS; because metaphors
> need to be subtle, but phonics do not: at least not in the same sense.
> perhaps what I mean can be described rather by saying that phonics
> have to flow & ebb & bounce & shatter in complete harmony with
> everything else, with syntax & content; while metaphors are really the
> 'core', the *meaning* that exists in the cool sol underneath all the
> evident techniques.
>
> this is all a long-winded way of saying that musicality is, to me,
> language used in association with aesthetics as well as meaning. when
> a poem recounts an anecdote dully, it doesn't matter to me whether the
> meaning of the anecdote is symbolic or intriguing or not. the task of
> a poem is not JUST to be meaningful, but to also LOOK & SOUND
> meaningful; & to look & sound beautiful. for this we have imagery &
> phonics respectively; images & sounds working together = music.
>
> KS
>
> On 04/06/07, Halvard Johnson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> I agree with Anny and Doug, Kasper. I'm not sure what you
>> mean by "music."
>>
>> "I don't know what music is."
>> --Ludvig van Beethoven
>>
>> Halvard Johnson
>> ================
>> [log in to unmask]
>> [log in to unmask]
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>>
>> On Jun 4, 2007, at 9:59 AM, Douglas Barbour wrote:
>>
>> > I agree with Anny that this response was interesting & thoughtful,
>> > Kasper, and found your comments on your own approach intriguing.
>> >
>> > I'm not quite sure what you mean by detached. I would tend to use
>> > the term 'abstract' perhaps.
>> >
>> > I do feel, in my own case, that the lyric 'I' can itself be a kind
>> > of dodge, or at least that it carries a lot of cultural baggage
>> > that might force the poem into certain responses....
>> >
>> > But the result, in a poem where the 'I' doesn't appear, need not be
>> > 'detached,' & I also recognize that my desire to avoid the 'I' is
>> > mine, & read a lot of poems in which the poet uses the "I"
>> > brilliantly, so it's my problem, not poetry's or other poets'....
>> >
>> > Anyway, it's not a bad thing to be thinking about the theory...
>> >
>> > Doug
>> > On 4-Jun-07, at 1:40 AM, kasper salonen wrote:
>> >
>> >> my own writing has a way of being rather detached, & I think
>> this has
>> >> to do with my conception of poetry in general AS somewhat
>> detached.
>> > Douglas Barbour
>> > 11655 - 72 Avenue NW
>> > Edmonton Ab T6G 0B9
>> > (780) 436 3320
>> > http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/
>> >
>> > Latest book: Continuations (with Sheila E Murphy)
>> > http://www.uap.ualberta.ca/UAP.asp?LID=41&bookID=664
>> >
>> >
>> > Art has to be forgotten: Beauty must be realized.
>> >
>> > Piet Mondrian
>>
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