medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Guibert of Tournai, a Franciscan who died in 1288, left a collection of ad status sermons; see J. Schneyer, Repertorium der lateinischen Sermones des Mittelalters, für die Zeit von 1150-1350 (Münster, 1969-90), pt. 2, pp. 299-307. Among these are 9 sermons Ad virgines et puellas & 2 Ad adolescentes et pueros. There also is one Ad eos qui docent in scolis parvulos.
Tom Izbicki
Thomas Izbicki
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>>> [log in to unmask] 11/23/05 8:41 AM >>>
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Dear John,
Estate sermons sound like just the sort of thing I'm looking for, as I'm in
the middle of writing a chapter on how Giotto's frescoes can be related to
conduct literature and devotional literature aimed at different
audiences(women, children, knights, merchants etc) I didn't know about
these. I'd be especially interested in those for merchants and children as
I'm finding sources hard to come by. Presumably they are published? I too
would be interested in seeing your translation of the children's one if you
wouldn't mind.
yours
Laura
----- Original Message -----
From: <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 23 November 2005 02:37
Subject: Re: Children in church
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> Sorry, Dan. The sermon for children was the only one I translated;
> checking the original, I see it was titled "ad pueros et adolescentes." I
> don't have any other references to send you to other than what might be in
> Nicholas Orme's book, which I found very enlightening. The sermon was in
> a series of Jacques de Vitry's "estate sermons" aimed at various
> classes--one for merchants, another for farmers, for sailors, etc. I'm
> happy to send you the complete translation of the children's sermon
> off-list if you like.
>
> That's a great admonition against wrestling, by the way. My impression
> from English visitation records, synodal legislation, and pastoral manuals
> is that your average village church and churchyard must have been pretty
> boisterous places.
>
> Best,
> John
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dan Kline <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 6:00 pm
> Subject: Re: [M-R] Children in church
>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>> culture
>> Great thread!
>>
>> John, as my Latin is rusty and my access to sources even more
>> limited, does
>> your anthology have other de Vitry sermons directed toward
>> children, or do
>> you know any references to translated sources? I'd like to read a
>> bit more.
>>
>> The question rang a little bell in my mind. Riley's _Memorials of
>> London and
>> London Life_ (p. 580) records the following edict (12 Henry IV
>> A.D. 1411)
>> from London's Letter Book I, fol. civ:
>>
>> "That no manere man ne child, of what estate or condicioun that he
>> be, be he
>> so hardy to wrestell, or make ony wrestliyng, within the Sentiuary
>> ne the
>> boundes of Poules [Saint Paul's], ne in non other open place
>> within the
>> Citee of Londone, up<on> peyne of emprisonement of fourty dayes,
>> and making
>> fyn unto the Chaumbre, after the discrecioun of the Mair and
>> Aldermen."
>> Of course, it's unclear as to whether the said wrestling took
>> place during
>> services or whether the church simply provided an ample and
>> tempting venue!
>>
>> Best from Anchorage,
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> ____________________________________
>> Dr. Daniel T. Kline
>> Associate Professor of English
>> U of Alaska Anchorage
>> 3211 Providence Drive
>> Anchorage, Alaska 99508
>> 907-786-4364 | [log in to unmask]
>> The Electronic Canterbury Tales:
>> http://afdtk.uaa.alaska.edu/index.htm
>>
>> "Fortunately, I keep my feathers numbered
>> for just such an emergency."
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
>> culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>> [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 12:01 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Children in church
>>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>> culture
>> In one of his sermons from the 1230s intended for boys/children
>> (pueri) and
>> talking about how they should learn their prayers, Jacques de
>> Vitry (c.
>> 1180-c. 1240) has this to say about what children should do upon
>> entering a
>> church. Unfortunately, he doesn't elaborate about how they should
>> behaveduring the course of a service. In the legislative and
>> pastoral sources I
>> know, it is usually godparents who were charged with seeing that their
>> godchildren learned the basic Christian prayers (Pater noster,
>> Ave, Creed,
>> sign of the cross). There is some brief anecdotal reference to
>> how Joan of
>> Arc (who says she learned all her prayers from her mother) acted
>> in church
>> in the transcripts of her trial. Given that the instructions for
>> behavingin church for adult lay people don't usually go much
>> beyond stand
>> reverently, pray what prayers you know, and bow at the elevation
>> of the
>> Host, I doubt children could be expected to know or do any more
>> than their
>> parents.
>>
>> "When you enter God's church, after making the sign of the cross you
>> should immediately greet the Lord of the house by kneeling before
>> the altar
>> or the image of the Crucified and giving him thanks, saying, "We
>> adore you,
>> Christ, and we bless you, for by your holy cross you have redeemed the
>> world." Say this five times in honor of him who bore the five
>> wounds for us.
>> And if you don't know how to say this greeting to the crucifix in
>> Latin, say
>> it in your native language.
>> "After greeting the Lord of the house, next you should greet the
>> Lady, kneeling before the image of the Blessed Virgin and saying
>> seven times
>> the angel's greeting, that is, "Hail Mary, full of grace" in honor
>> of her
>> who, filled sevenfold with the Spirit, conceived the Son of God.
>> For she is
>> courtly and kind, and she will return your greeting, perhaps not
>> in words
>> but in deeds.
>> "When you have done this, offer your faith to God and say the Creed,
>> and then any other prayers that God inspires in you."
>>
>> From Jean Baptiste Cardinal Pitra (ed.), _Analecta Novissima
>> SpicilegiiSolesmensis, Altera Continuatio_, v. 2 (Typis
>> Tusculanis, 1888), pp.
>> 439-442. My translation from my _Medieval Popular Religion: A Reader_.
>>
>> Best,
>> John
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------
>> John Shinners
>> Professor of Humanistic Studies
>> Saint Mary's College
>> Notre Dame, IN 46556
>> Office: (574) 284-4494
>> Fax: (574) 284-4716
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Chris Daniell <[log in to unmask]>
>> Date: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 7:52 am
>> Subject: [M-R] Children in church
>>
>> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion
>> and
>> > culture
>> > Does anyone know articles or accounts of the attitude and
>> presence
>> > of
>> > children in church. (I am thinking here of the practicalities of
>> > children
>> > in church during services.) As the father of an active 3 year
>> old
>> > who can
>> > explore or enjoy playing with toys in the church it struck me
>> that
>> > I can't
>> > think of Medieval English examples of people commenting on
>> > children in
>> > church. Were children excluded, segregated, ignored or accepted
>> > and
>> > tolerated. I suspect the latter but have no examples one way or
>> > the other.
>> >
>> > Chris Daniell
>> >
>> >
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>
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