medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: John Briggs <[log in to unmask]>
> Alright, "semi-blind" :-) I just meant not piercing the exterior of the
wall (as opposed to the interior). You did use the word "blind", albeit not
as loosely as I did.
if you say so, i'll accept it as fact, John; and just plead the Senior Moment
excuse.
i mis-spoked.
otOh, it seems to me that you are mis-using the concept of "blind", which
should be reserved for a condition of *no* piercing of the wall at all.
certainly this is the case with a "blind arcade", which is simply an arcade
which is "applied" to the wall (of course, it is not "applied" at all, but is
an integral part of the coursing of the masonry).
the Standard, Default condition for a triforium --a true triforium, i.e., a
passage in the thickness of the wall-- is to have an arcade on the nave side
and a wall on the "outside".
as i said, triforia can be glazed, though this is not all that common an
occurance, and unknown before the early 13th c., i believe.
(btw, i mis-spoked again when i said that St. Urban of Troyes had a glazed
triforium; it does not
http://www.beloit.edu/~arthist/historyofart/gothic/troyessturbain.htm
i was thinking of another church in that city, whose name i can't recall; but
the cathedral has a glazed triforium, in the choir
http://www.beloit.edu/~arthist/historyofart/gothic/troyescath.htm#artifact5
apse
http://www.beloit.edu/~arthist/historyofart/gothic/troyescath.htm#artifact6
and transept
http://www.beloit.edu/~arthist/historyofart/gothic/troyescath.htm#artifact10
)
one could therefore say, "an unglazed triforium", but this would be something
of a redundancy, to my ear.
if you had a building with a blind arcade at the triforium level you *could*
call that a "blind triforium", i suppose, but i would prefer to say, speaking
with the most Pedantic Specificity i could muster, "the triforium is in part
replaced by a blind arcade at triforium level".
or, "blind tracery at the triforium level".
perversely, Chartres has a two bays of blind tracery at the clerestory level,
so one could (incorrectly) speak of a "blind clerestory" in those spots.
>>> At Amiens, the triforium has grown, and is almost pretending to be a
gallery, as it does at Bourges,
>> loosing me a bit here --"grown" *taller*, i suppose you mean.
> "Losing".
whatever.
>Not just taller, more prominent, I suppose. The point is that
Amiens has two arches per bay (subdivided by tracery), at Bourges it is one
outer arch per bay, just as a gallery would have - rather that a row of
arcading.
Stephen Murray, at Columbia, has a very, very nice site devoted to Amiens:
http://www.mcah.columbia.edu/Mcahweb/index-frame.html
but i can't seem to find the urls i need there.
here's a fine drawing of the elevation from our dependable Beloit site:
http://www.beloit.edu/~arthist/historyofart/gothic/amiens.htm#artifact8
yes, i see what you mean --instead of a rather simple arcade, as we have at,
say, Chartres (and all early gothic buildings)
http://www.beloit.edu/~arthist/historyofart/gothic/chartrescath.htm#artifact10
which looks quite "pimitive" by comparison
http://www.beloit.edu/~arthist/historyofart/gothic/chartrescath.htm#artifact9
at Amiens we have something more elaborate, the multiplication of the
"rational" subdivisions within a given architectural element which are part of
what Erwin Panofsky saw as a quintessentially "scholatic" manifestion in this
archtypically High Gothic building.
the bay is divided into two parts which are, themselves, divided into three
parts (at the triforium level) or two parts (at the clerestory level).
this "rational" tendancy is even clearer (as it were) at the clerestory level,
since there we have the basic formula of an oculus above and two lancets
below, which two lancets are themselves divided into an oculus with two
lancets...
http://www.beloit.edu/~arthist/historyofart/gothic/amiens.htm#artifact7
one could imagine this process of rational subdividing going on infinitely,
were there enough room.
Bourges
http://www.beloit.edu/~arthist/historyofart/gothic/bourges.htm#artifact6
(remember we are looking at the "doubling" of the elevation in that drawing
http://www.beloit.edu/~arthist/historyofart/gothic/bourges.htm#artifact5 )
opts for a very different "solution" to the problem of how to articulate the
triforium arcade, one which is somewhat closer to Chartres, at once bold and
"traditional".
but i wouldn't at all say that it was "almost pretending to be a gallery".
unless we wish to hopelessly confuse "gallery" with "triforium".
which, at this point in the discussion, would be somewhat counterproductive,
it seems to me.
c
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