Hi Marcus,
Yes, I agree with your reasoning on the bingo scenario.
A common area, in this situation, is normally a room where residents meet
during the day and have coffee, meetings and other communal events. Common
areas in the wider sense are, as Helen says, a very different kettle of fish
and usually refer to entrances and corridors leading to different services,
flats or shops. These areas are indeed more difficult to establish public
or private use (better left to another day).
With regard to the postal boxes, I would generally say yes, if they are
within the a common entrance lobby they would be classed as being a service
to the public and the approach to that service should be accessible.
However, one then has the problem of who is responsible! Is it the Housing
Association or is it the Post Office? This is the problem with common areas
in the wider sense.
This debate could run and run and run and ...
John.
-----Original Message-----
From: Marcus Ormerod [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 26 November 2004 09:08
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ACCESSIBUILT] Housing Associations and DDA
Hi Helen and John
just wanted to add my two pennyworth as I see it. In the bingo scenario
surely it would depend on the nature of the event. If the bingo was for
residents then it would not be covered under Part 3, but if residents can
invite others along then it would. I thought a common area was that area
that anyone was likely to go into.
What, for instance, would be the situation if you have a set of postal boxes
located inside the lobby area that anyone can post items into - presumably
this would be a common area, but if there is no access into the lobby except
for residents and the postal boxes are outside then it would be not?
Also on the training session there will always be Part 2 to consider as they
are employees.
Marcus
-----Original Message-----
From: Accessibuilt list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
John Gregory
Sent: 25 November 2004 22:19
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ACCESSIBUILT] Housing Associations and DDA
Hi Helen,
Certainly any member of the 'public', which I define as someone not related
to or has an association with or is invited by a tenant of that
accommodation, would be a member of the general public. If the event, bingo
or whatever, is held in the common room and to get there it necessitates
passing through a passageway or hall from the main entrance (or any other
designated entrance for the event), that route would need to be accessible.
The second of your scenarios is somewhat easier. As i interpret the
situation, This 'training' session is not open to the general public, ie, it
is not an open event whereby a member of the general public could walk in
and take part. The DDA only extends to areas where it would be reasonably
expected that the general public, or a section of the public, would be.
Staff meetings and training would not, in my opinion, be an issue. If,
however, the training session was advertised and attendees were paying for
(or even invited free) to the training, but were not employees of the
Association, then this would place a different emphasis on the situation as
it would then become a 'public' event and subject to Part III.
This is merely my interpretation of how the legislation works, I may be
wrong, but as you say, only case law will prove otherwise.
Regards.
John.
-----Original Message-----
From: Accessibuilt list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
helen kane
Sent: 25 November 2004 18:10
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ACCESSIBUILT] Housing Associations and DDA
Hi,
There is currently no definition of "public" in DDA terms; we will have to
wait for case law to clarify. John in your example how would you
differentiate between a relative passing through the same corridor as a
local resident visiting the common room for bingo? If the housing
association hold training courses for regional staff in the room should this
make it a public area?
As with everything, we need to take each case individually and observe the
various functions closely, particularly until we have clarity. Clarity can
only come from case law now, I'm afraid. I'm watching cases, and will pass
them on if I spot them.
The DRC have done something about this and the landlord and tenant grey
areas generally. In late September they gathered together the lawyers,
barristers and surveyors dealing with the subject for a seminar. They are
keen to progress. A number of articles have appeared in the property press
too.
Regards
Helen
From: John Gregory <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: Accessibuilt list <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Housing Associations and DDA
>Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 16:19:39 -0000
>
>Hi,
>
>Common areas in sheltered accommodation would, in my opinion, not count as
>public access. Tenants of these premises often have family and friends
>visiting, but they could not be classed as 'the public'. this would be
like
>saying that anyone visiting your own home would be a member of the public
>and that your house should be made accessible.
>
>As I understand the current position, areas that are used for 'public'
>functions such as holding bingo in the comon room to which local residents
>could attend would be classed as somewhere that would fall into Part III.
>coffee mornings, charitable events, WI meetings etc etc would also, if they
>were held in such premises, be subject to Part III.
>
>I agree that this is a difficult area to define and one which the DRC
should
>be addressing to clarify the situation.
>
>John Gregory
>Access Officer
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: clare [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>Sent: 25 November 2004 16:00
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [ACCESSIBUILT] Housing Associations and DDA
>
>
>Helen,
>
>Thanks for the reply, we are hoping to advise a housing association client
>who have not addressed the DDA at all on where they should be focussing
>their efforts.
>
>I don't know the full detail on their building stock but understand that
>they have some offices to which there is limited public access and that
some
>of the blocks are designed as sheltered and assisted housing and include
>common parts such as entrance areas and common rooms. As I understand
their
>Part II obligations are relatively straightforward in terms of the office
>accommodation in that they have non-anticipatory duties to make reasonable
>adjustments for their staff. What I'm not so clear on is exactly which
>areas would be considered 'public' under Part III and who would be classed
>as 'public' in terms of those visiting tenants etc.
>
>They are looking to carry out very brief appraisals of current
accessibility
>as part of a wider condition survey (despite our efforts to explain the
>limitations of such an approach) before going on to undertake more detailed
>access audits in the future.
>
>Any clarification would be greatly appreciated as would and sources of
>further information.
>
>Regards
>
>Clare
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: helen kane <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 3:18 PM
>Subject: Re: Housing Associations and DDA
>
>
>Yes, I work with them - but do you mean the residential common parts or
>offices? For offices they are clearly service providers, so pretty much
>standard duties, but residential .... well that's a can of worms.
>
>Let me know and I'll help.
>
>Helen
>
>
> >From: clare < [log in to unmask]
><mailto:[log in to unmask]> >
> >Reply-To: Accessibuilt list < [log in to unmask]
><mailto:[log in to unmask]> >
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Housing Associations and DDA
> >Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 14:51:10 -0000
> >
> >Hello all,
> >
> >Could anyone point me in the direction of some basic information on the
>obligations of housing associations under Part III of the DDA - i.e. access
>to common parts etc?
> >
> >Thanks
> >
> >Clare Armstrong
> >
> >----------End of Message----------
> >
> >Run by SURFACE for more information on research, consultancy and the
>distance taught MSc. in Accessibility and Inclusive Design programme visit:
> >
> >http://www.inclusive-design.it
> >
> >Archives for the Accessibuilt discussion list are located at
>http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/accessibuilt.html
>----------End of Message----------
>
>Run by SURFACE for more information on research, consultancy and the
>distance taught MSc. in Accessibility and Inclusive Design programme visit:
>
>
>http://www.inclusive-design.it
>
>
>Archives for the Accessibuilt discussion list are located at
>http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/accessibuilt.html
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star. The
>service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive
>anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit:
>http://www.star.net.uk <http://www.star.net.uk>
>________________________________________________________________________
>----------End of Message----------
>
>Run by SURFACE for more information on research, consultancy and the
>distance taught MSc. in Accessibility and Inclusive Design programme visit:
>
>
>http://www.inclusive-design.it
>
>
>Archives for the Accessibuilt discussion list are located at
>http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/accessibuilt.html
>
>
>This e-mail is confidential and may contain legally privileged information.
You should not disclose its contents to any other person. If you are not
the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately.
>
>Whilst the Council has taken every reasonable precaution to minimise the
risk of computer software viruses, it cannot accept liability for any damage
which you may sustain as a result of such viruses. You should carry out
your own virus checks before opening the e-mail (and/or any attachments).
>
>Unless expressly stated otherwise, the contents of this e-mail represent
only the views of the sender and do not impose any legal obligation upon the
Council or commit the Council to any course of action.
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star. The
>service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive
>anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit:
>http://www.star.net.uk
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>----------End of Message----------
>
>Run by SURFACE for more information on research, consultancy and the
distance taught MSc. in Accessibility and Inclusive Design programme visit:
>
>http://www.inclusive-design.it
>
>Archives for the Accessibuilt discussion list are located at
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/accessibuilt.html
----------End of Message----------
Run by SURFACE for more information on research, consultancy and the
distance taught MSc. in Accessibility and Inclusive Design programme visit:
http://www.inclusive-design.it
Archives for the Accessibuilt discussion list are located at
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/accessibuilt.html
----------End of Message----------
Run by SURFACE for more information on research, consultancy and the
distance taught MSc. in Accessibility and Inclusive Design programme visit:
http://www.inclusive-design.it
Archives for the Accessibuilt discussion list are located at
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/accessibuilt.html
________________________________________________________________________
This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star. The
service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive
anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit:
http://www.star.net.uk <http://www.star.net.uk>
________________________________________________________________________
----------End of Message----------
Run by SURFACE for more information on research, consultancy and the
distance taught MSc. in Accessibility and Inclusive Design programme visit:
http://www.inclusive-design.it
Archives for the Accessibuilt discussion list are located at
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/accessibuilt.html
This e-mail is confidential and may contain legally privileged information. You should not disclose its contents to any other person. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately.
Whilst the Council has taken every reasonable precaution to minimise the risk of computer software viruses, it cannot accept liability for any damage which you may sustain as a result of such viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail (and/or any attachments).
Unless expressly stated otherwise, the contents of this e-mail represent only the views of the sender and do not impose any legal obligation upon the Council or commit the Council to any course of action.
________________________________________________________________________
This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star. The
service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive
anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit:
http://www.star.net.uk
________________________________________________________________________
----------End of Message----------
Run by SURFACE for more information on research, consultancy and the distance taught MSc. in Accessibility and Inclusive Design programme visit:
http://www.inclusive-design.it
Archives for the Accessibuilt discussion list are located at http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/accessibuilt.html
|
