medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Sensible queries. See specifics below.
At 05:54 AM 11/12/2003 -0500, Richard Landes wrote:
>i'm confused by this discussion. i understand that "fertur dixisse" meant
>to provide a distancing mechanism, "undermin[ing] any straightforward
>acceptance of it." but it cd just be a way for caesarius to distance
>himself and his church from so troubling a statement, rather than a way of
>saying it's not clear he said it.
It could be. But in the context of the _Dialogus miraculorum_, where C. is
repeatedly concerned with the credibility of reports (he has a whole range
of strategies to indicate degrees of reliability), this seems
unlikely. And so would require argumentation. Besides, I don't find any
indication in DM 5.21 that C. is troubled by the content of abbot Amaury's
reported utterance.
>or am i wrong that he might have found this particular expression
>troubling morally (as Galindo/Prudentius might have found the slaughter of
>the coniuratio of 859 troubling). in which case, there's no problem
>reading the account straightforwardly as widely reflective of an
>ecclesiastical position (ie caesarius likes the line whether it's true or not).
I think that last is exactly right. Si non e vero, e ben trovato.
>how are we supposed to read the story if not straightforwardly? that he
>might have said it, but we don't know, but caesarius is telling us it... why?
Because it's a good line and C. likes good lines. He is even capable of
inventing one appropriate to a reported situation and of introducing it
with the subjunctive 'diceret' (i.e., "X might have said ,..."). Also, the
reported utterance is only ancillary to (or subordinate to) to point of the
story as a whole, which is that Cathars are especially perverse heretics
who must be repressed vigorously.
Best again,
John Dillon
>At 10:13 PM 11/11/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>>medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>>
>>One could also have a look at Elaine Graham-Leigh, "Justifying Deaths:
>>The Chronicler Pierre des
>>Vaux-de-Cernay and the Massacre of Béziers", _Mediaeval Studies_ 63
>>(2001), 283-303. Regardless of what Arnaud may have actually said or
>>done, the saying attributed to him is presented by Caesarius in a way
>>that undermines any straightforward acceptance of it.
>>
>>Yet it clearly _has_ been widely accepted. And without
>>qualification. So perhaps, even though this acceptance would seem to
>>involve a naive reading (or wilful misreading) of C., it has an
>>authoritative sponsor. And as the quote is given very often in modern
>>French, perhaps that sponsor is/was francophone. Hence my query to
>>Terrill about a source for the _French_ version he cited. I'm looking
>>for francophone intermediaries, not the Latin original.
>>
>>Best again,
>>John Dillon
>>
>>On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:18:44 -0500
>> Nicole Schulman <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >>And
>> >>do you have a source for this French version? There's a Latin one in
>> >>Caesarius of Heisterbach's closely contemporary _Dialogus miraculorum_,
>> >>dist. 5, cap. 21. But that's put in the mouth of a character in a
>> dialogue
>> >>and is preceded by the distancing formula "fertur dixisse", leading one to
>> >>suppose that Caesarius (who is ordinarily concerned to indicate the
>> >>relative reliability of his sources) is not vouching for the accuracy of
>> >>this particular piece of reported discourse. Best, John Dillon
>> >
>> >The French version comes from Heisterbach who is its sole source.
>> >
>> >And, yes, there is every reason to doubt its authenticity. The other
>> >accounts (that were more contemporaneous) do not mention that Arnaud
>> >had any such role in the massacre. Sibly & Sibly have a very
>> >sensible discussion of the whole massacre in an appendix to their
>> >translation of Vaux-de-Cernay's History of the Albigensian Crusade,
>> >which is worth a gander.
>> >--
>> > Nicole Morgan Schulman n.m.schulman <at> sympatico.ca
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