Paul Hoffman wrote as part of his rather detailed response to Gavin:

'most fundamental.....humane instincts of mankind.. namely those concerned
with social justice and
> equity. ............... we  presently see the targeting of a Palestinian
house as an example of incredible barbarism'

 Paul seems to attempt, to draw in every possible historical 'fact' to
demonstrate the right of one ideology to destroy a people, yet he talks
about notions of social justice and equity. His notion of social justice &
equity is exemplified by reference to the 'targeting of a Palestinian
house', the 'targeting was the firing of a 1 ton missile by an F16 pilot,
into a residential area, which resulted in 16 deaths, of which 10 were
children and more than 150 injured, and wounded. The next day some
Palestinians 'targeted' a car driving on one of the roads built purely for
settler use, and three people died including a child. It would seem that
Paul has the same notion of social justice as those who fired on the car,
after all, building car, car building, just two targets!
The version of history that Paul would have us believe is one of unmitigated
oppression of Jews; that Jews were passive victims and there only exists two
groups in the world, Jews and anti-Semites. Hence he justifies the killing
of children in terms of 'targeting a house'. This in not only wrong but is
also a disservice to the Jewish people who fought and worked in their own
interests against racism and oppression, and were successful (Leon, A.
(1941)). One only has to look at the history of the Jews in Spain during the
10th & 11th centuries or, for that matter the way Oliver Cromwell encouraged
the settlement of Jews in the 1650s, and contrary to the Zionist version of
history the Jews fought back in the camps of the Holocaust for examples of
resistance see Finklestein.  Although the Holocaust carried out by the
Europeans killed 6 million Jews, it also killed Romanies, Russians, Gays,
Disabled and Politicals, who are all forgotten, is used as the justification
for the dispossession of the Palestinians.
Paul has already agreed with me that the Israeli state was created by
terrorism and long endless debates over one version of history against
another does not address the human rights issues that exist today, so here
are some more stats:

In 1947 the UN Partition plan divided Palestine in two: A Jewish and Arab
state, the Jews numbering 600,000 (30% of the pop.) owning 8% of the land
were granted 55% of historical Palestine, the Palestinians numbering
1,100,000 were awarded 45% of the land, nearly 400,000 Arabs were to live in
the Jewish state.

After the massacre of Deir Yassin (1948) by the Zionists the Arabs fled in
fear of their lives. The Zionists took 72% of historical Palestine. The land
grab goes on.

Since the Israeli attack on 'the terrorist infrastructure'
580 homes completely destroyed, 6534 partially
340 incidents of denial of access to ambulances at roadblocks
34,606 olive and fruit trees uprooted
1162.4 dunums of land confiscated
600 Palestinian juveniles put in military detention

Palestinians killed Sept 28th 2000 - 23rd July 2002
1788 deaths including 148 assassinations, or extra judicial killings (grave
breach of the 4th Geneva Convention and as such considered war crimes).
393, or 21.7% < 18 years. 85.3 % civilian. 361 killed by heavy weapons.
1026 killed by live ammunition.

Palestinians injured 40,000+
West Bank4 :35.7% children, 32.4% by live ammunition, 64.9% upper body, 39%
moderate-severe (16,673 cases, 28/02/02)
Gaza Strip 5 : c.20% children, 37% live ammunition, 60% upper body, (6000
cases - 6/3/02)
UNICEF estimates 7000 children injured.

Between 29th March and April 26th 2002 128 medical teams were attacked

260 governmental and non-governmental clinics were forced to stop working
Civilians were used as 'human shields' (Amnesty International, Human Rights
watch)
$350 million worth of physical damage to Palestinian infrastructure (World
Bank)
Destruction of water lines and pumps that left 400,000 Palestinians without
access to running water (Oxfam)
Source Palestine Monitor, if you want more information see
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/Palestinian_intifada_fact_sheet.ht
m

Some useful references (co-incidentally all by Jewish writers)
Finkelstein, N. (2000) The Holocaust Industry. London, Verso Press
Finkelstein, N. (2001) Image and Reality of the Israel- Palestine Conflict.
London, Verso
Haas, A. (2000) Drinking the Sea at Gaza, Days an Nights in a Land Under
Siege.New York, Owl Books
(published in Israel: Haas. A (1996) Lishot mehayam shel'Aaza. Tel Aviv,
Hasifriya Hahadasha)
Leon, A. (1941) The Jewish Question: A Marxist Interpretation

When I read Paul's contributions I am reminded of the end of George Orwell's
Animal Farm:
'Twelve voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike. No question
now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside
looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but
already it was impossible to say which was which'.
In other words, house to car, car to house, from Hamas to Zionist, Zionist
to Hamas. Instead of trying to justify human rights abuses, torture and
killing should not we be arguing for human rights, social justice and equity
in a discussion group entitled radical statistics?

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