my thanks to B.M.COOK for sharing several interesting thoughts on this
problem.
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>...I have spent a lot of time brooding over both Necrologies
mmmmm..... this doesn't sound like a healthy pastime, somehow. i
presume that this brooding of yours preceded my post and am content to believe
that i'm not responsible for it.
>...one of my problems identifying Astralabe, son of Abelard with Astralabe,
Abbot of Hauterive is that the death of the former is commemorated in the
Necrology of the Paraclete as 30/31 October and the latter died (Necrology of
Hauterive) 5 August.
my feeling is that a discrepancy of 5/6 days would normally be close enough
for monastic work, especially if there is some distance involved (where is
Hauterive? --sounds waythahell and picardish to me), but the problem is
complicated by the apparent reversal of what one might expect to be the order
of the dates --if your suppositions are right, it would seem that he died at
the Paraclete, no? any evidence for this, one way or the other?
in any event, i'd say that the coincidence of dates is at least as strong as
the (*very*, n'est pas?) strong coincidence of a near unique name (*are* there
any other Astralabes out there??? they're not too thick on the ground in the
Chartres region, i can tell you).
>whereas if the person commemorated died "on the premises" then the chances
are that the day of commemoration and the day of death are (virtually)
identical,
yes.
anything else seems counter intuitive. *except* for the business of moving
the dates around for purposes of clustering the commemorations together, and
i'd say that this only happens to folks of comparatively secondary
importance.
>and the but that where the person lived some distance away then the
death was commemorated on the anniversary of the day on which the news of the
death reached the institution,
yes.
i find this very common in the Chartres necrologies: e.g., a bishop is listed
in the cathedral necrology on one day and in one of the abbeys
down the hill on the next, and in "far away" (but still in the diocese)
Mantes, say, a day or three later.
i've never done it, but i'd bet dollars to donuts that if one were to actually
do a systematic study of the entries of famous fellows (like kings, bishops,
abbots) in sucessively distant necrologies this pattern would definitely
emerge.
>ie the day on which the first requiem mass was celebrated - one would hardly
wait ten or so months to celebrate a requiem on the 'correct' day.
now, *this* is an interesting thought, which never occurred to me.
>We know that obituary scrolls were taken from institution to institution so
would it be correct to assume that the arrival of a monk with an obituary
scroll would be the signal for a requiem to be held the next
day?
i'll go for that.
though, for folks of substance the word wouldn't necessarily have to wait for
a roll full of the hoi or the poloi, i'd think: news of a bishop's
or abbot in the lineage's passing would be sent with the next fellow
going that way --or, in some circumstances, might rate its own dedicated
mercury.
not "just" spiritual considerations but very important political/economic ones
directly affecting everyone in the neighborhood would be at stake, after all.
>However, I am very much an amateur and would welcome professional feedback.
very much my sentiments (about myself) as well.
>It is clear that families are commemorated in groups on the same day and
there is NO WAY that all could have died together - even in a plague
year!
right.
and, i've got instances where i can prove by the charter evidence that
one fellow outlived the other.
>My best example is this from the necrology of the Paraclete: 16 April
...Robertus, miles de Nentouleio; Joanna et Elisa, uxores sue.
bravo.
encore.
>[Or could he have had two wives at the same time?
this looks like you're suffering from excessive brooding.
take a breath.
>And been commemorated in a respectable Abbey like the Paraclete ? :-)]
does Robert appear as a patron --or "friend"-- of the abbey in the
cartulary?
how far away is _nentouleio_ [Nanteuil?] from the abbey?
>I too have searched the literature for some advice on this problem - a guide
to genealogists on how to interpret information in necrologies -, but without
success.
encouraging news.
>IIRC Patrick Geary's "Phantoms of remembrance" while about Necrologies, does
not tackle this problem at all.
yes. curious, isn't it?
seems like i checked the little "Necrologies" book in that new Brepol's
guides-to-sources series as well, with equal luck.
>If you are interested I can quote a number of examples of discrepancies in
dates when the same person is commemorated in two different Necrologies.
too common an occurance; but, as i say, making a systematic study of them
would probably yield something of great interest.
tedious as hell, though, sure enough.
since you have a big head start on me, what with all your brooding, i'll just
hold your coat.
>The explanation seems to me to lie in the time taken for news to travel.
yep. vidie super.
>But I would welcome help on this one.
ditto.
best to all from here,
christopher
____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
|