medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
"Jonathan Herold" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>...recorded... in ...the retrospectively-drafted (or, less charitably,
forged) "Altitonantis" charter
what a lovely, P.C. circumlocutionization.
"Dmitri N. Starostine" <[log in to unmask]> wrote :
>I cannot say about Cluny, but throughout Europe counts and their and
knights usually held monastic lands as advocati even if these monasteries
were formally free from their lordship (Fr. avoue, Ger. Vogt). ...I think
these lay lords usually received the tithe and paid a nominal rent to the
monastery (thus acknowledging the monastery as the landlord).
i guess i don't understand the original question (below), but it seems to me
that :
1) Duke William certainly only had the power to free Cluny from
services/dues/customs on land which was, itself, held [in fief, presumably]
from him --land beyond his direct and indirect holding was not in his gift,
surely;
b) land given outside Wm's Ducky might or might not have been "freed"
from these obligations by the _capitalis dominus_, i would think (only a
reading of the individual charters would give the answer to this question, on
a case-by-case basis (Bruel's publication of the cluny charters is here, btw
:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/ConsultationTout.exe?E=0&O=N028909 , etc.)
iii) any given knight holding land from Cluny --either _in feodum_ or as an
_advocatus_, or on whatever basis would owe service for *that* land to either
Cluny *or* to the C.D., *or* to both, perhaps(?), if not specifically exempted
from it in the deed of gift; and that guy might or might not owe service to
another lord(s) for other properties which he held in fief.
no ?
"John B. Wickstrom" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>...Cluny was freed by its original charter from Duke William of all
obligations to lay authority or lordship. Yet one may assume (no?) that some
of the lands that Cluniac monasteries acquired housed knights with military
obligations to their lords. How were these obligations carried out if Cluny
had lordship of such properties? That is, were these knights obliged to give
knight service to Cluny, or did they somehow bypass the abbey to serve some
other parallel or higher lord?
>An enquiring student mind wants to know
rare occurance, is it ?
best from here,
christopher
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