medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Much depends on how one understands the role of a count. As an office
or (as we now use it) a title of nobility. If there were counts of
Anjou before the family of Godfrey, back to Carolingian days, the
reference might fit predecessor better than ancestor. I recall from a
Hopkins graduate student's one seminar paper that works written under
the Capetians might reference Carolingian precedents.
He might discuss this in his dissertation:
Representation of authority in twelfth-century Anjou ideology and
narrative in the Chronicle of the Counts of Anjou (1107-1155)
[microform] / by Michael Schaffer.
Author:
Schaffer, Michael.
<https://catalog.library.jhu.edu/ipac20/ipac.jsp?session=1V87357E3698P.15557&profile=general&uri=search=PAUTH%7E%21Schaffer,%20Michael.&menu=search&submenu=alpha&source=%7E%21horizon>
Publisher:
2001.
Description:
2 v. (501 leaves) ; 28 cm.
URL:
http://wwwlib.umi.com/dissertations/dlnow/3006339 Available to US
Hopkins community
Notes:
Vita.
U.M.I. no. 3006339.
Thesis (Ph. D.)--Johns Hopkins University, 2001.
Tom Izbicki
Christopher Crockett wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> From: Tom Izbicki <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
>> I went digging in our Latin dictionaries. The Oxford Latin dictionary
>>
> only gives "predecessor in office." Most give both meanings, but most give
> "predecessor in office" as the first in line. [I am leaving out the sense of
> the word as "military scout".]
>
>
> Great Minds tending to Run in the same Ruts, my exercises in the Reference
> Room here came up with about the same conclusion.
>
> however, Niemeyer:
>
> 1. predecessor
> 2. ancestor
>
> and the new Latham:
>
> a. front-line soldier
> b. (?) beadle [???]
> c. predecessor
> d. ancestor
>
> most of the latter's instances of use are ambiguous, but there's this one
>
> 1080. concedo Lanfranco archiepiscop omnes consuetudines in ecclesia de N.
> quas solebant habere antecessores ejus.
>
>
> Lucian Merlet, learned Archiviste of the Eure-et-Loir and the editor of the
> charter in question translates it as "ance^tre" in his historical introduction
> to the cartulary.
>
> as i said, the distinction, in the context of this particular charter, might
> not be of any significance at all --shucks, maybe the Count meant *both*.
>
>
> but i look upon these charters as little universes --or, rather, as little
> windows into a little universe-- so i try and pick them apart as best i can.
>
> in this particular case, i'm trying to see what role --if any-- the Count
> might have played in the reform of this secular collegial.
>
> my working hypothesis is that he played no role at all in that --it was a
> project dreamed up by the Arch Reformer (esp. of collegials) Bishop Ivo (d.
> 1115), was contiuned and finally brought to fruition by his sucessor, Godfrey
> of Leves, after what looks like more than a decade of resistance by the
> Viscount of Chateaudun (who seems to have had the place in his pocket) and the
> secular canons in place.
>
> in early 1131 Godfrey finally had a reform abbot in place and obtained a bull
> of confirmation from Innocent II (who happened to be in France, with Godfrey
> as his Legate, looking for support against the anti-pope Anecletus).
>
> Innocent's bull mentions that there are still some secular canons at the place
> and outlined conditions under which they might remain in the enjoyment of
> their prebends.
>
> the 1148 act of the Count is the only one which mentions him at all in this
> period.
>
> i'm thinking that he used the ocassion to simply "show the flag" by asserting
> (or reminding everyone) that it was his "antecessores" who had founded the
> place in the first instance --repeating the expression three times, just for
> effect.
>
> it is a charter of acquiescence to a fait accompli, not an assertion of power
> or rights, and is certainly not indicative of any essential role the Count
> played in the reform, as some recent historians have written.
>
>
> thanks, Tom.
>
> c
>
>
>
>
>> Christopher Crockett wrote:
>>
>
>
>>> a minor point, perhaps, but i would be interested to hear the opinions of
>>>
> list members less Latiniacally-Challenged than myself regarding the meaning of
> an expression in a 12th c. charter i'm interested in.
>
>
>>> in 1149 (n.s.) Count Theobald IV of Blois(/Chartres) confirmed certain
>>>
> justice rights exercised by the (newly reformed) canons of the abbey of St.
> Mary Magdalen of Chateaudun, which had been granted (or so he claimed) by
> _antecessores mei ab antiquo_, back in the time when it was (just?) their
> chapel (_capelle eorum_).
>
>
>>> he uses this expression three times in a rather short charter.
>>>
>
>
>>> my question is: does he mean to say his "ancestors" or his "predecessors"
>>>
> did this?
>
>
>>> in this case it might be argued that it is a distinction without a
>>>
> difference, since Teddy4 was a direct descendant of the earliest known Counts
> of Blois, going back a century and a half, well before the foundation of St.
> MMCD (which appears to have been c. 1060).
>
>
>>> but i'm wondering whether or not there might have been some subtle nuance
>>>
> of meaning intended here, since the thrust of the charter is to attempt to
> establish (at least in principle, in the face of the new, bishop-driven
> reform
> of the place) that, institutionally, the abbey owed its existence --and its
> rights-- to the the counts.
>
>
>>> any off-the-top-of-the-head thoughts would be appreciated.
>>>
>
>
>>> i include the text of the body of the charter below, with the relevent
>>>
> expressions axterixéd.
>
>
>>> c
>>>
>
>
>>> ------------
>>>
>
>
>>> L. Merlet and L. Jarry, Cartulaire de l'abbaye de la Madeleine de
>>>
> Châteaudun. (Châteaudun, 1896), no. 11:
>
>
>>> Quoniam Deus veritas est et qui veritatem impugnant Deum quoque constat
>>>
> impugnare, que vera scimus, ne posteros lateant, stilo memorie mandando
> posteritati transmittere curavimus. Quamobrem ego Theobaldus, Blesensis
> comes,
> existencium presentie et futurorum posteritati notum fieri volo quod
> **antecessores mei ab antiquo dederant*** ecclesie Beate-Marie-Magdalene
> Castridunensis, sicut capelle eorum, ne alieni liceret exibere sancta ad
> sacramenta juranda, in villa Castriduni, preterquam ministris predicte
> ecclesie, omnibus duellis vel sacramentis que in curia eorum seu in manu
> prepositorum ipsorum, in prefata villa, insumpta vel arramissa fuissent, que
> videlicet ipsi per se possent accipere vel dimittere.
>
>
>>> Judicia vero, que tunc temporis de ferro esse solebant, in curia eorum seu
>>>
> prepositorum ipsorum insumpta, in prenominata ecclesia ferentur.
>
>
>>> Ego autem Theobaldus comes hoc donum et hanc institutionem ***antecessorum
>>>
> meorum*** prefate ecclesie Beate-Marie concedo et in perpetuum confirmo.
>
>
>>> Et quoniam judicia ferri, que in temporibus ***antecessorum meorum*** esse
>>>
> solebant, prevaricata erant, addo insuper et confirmo ut omnia judicia, seu
> de
> ferro sive de aqua, in curia mea seu prepositi mei apud Castridunum insumpta,
> vel aliunde per justiciam nostram adducta; sacramenta vero de duellis et
> aliis
> rebus, sicut superius dicta sunt, ita teneri precipio, exceptis sacramentis
> que unus homo fecerit alteri si fuerint adramissi ante me vel ante prepositum
> meum, in parochiis illis in quibus insumpta fuerint expectabuntur et agentur.
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