medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Hi, Rochelle
This is all mildly interesting, albeit for the most part very familiar. Why you should address this exposition to me, though, is perplexing. After all, it was Henk, not I, who said "Pictures showing medieval theatricals are, however, extremely rare." I don't believe that I've said anything about the relative frequency (or lack thereof) of depictions of theatre performances (vel sim.) either medievally or in the sixteenth century.
You also say:
> So, yes, the possibility that the shroud was a stage prop is not nil,
>
> whether or not we can come up with a duplicate example of a painted
> crucified man.
I would be grateful if you would point out where in this thread anyone has said that that possibility _is_ nil. If no one has said that, what is the point of controverting it? Moreover, as far as I am aware, no one writing in this thread has asked for, or even said it would be good to have, "a duplicate example of a painted crucified man".
Similarly, in an earlier post today you said:
> No, I did not presuppose the thing had always been at Turin...
In the interest of clarity, it would again be good to know if you would point out where someone writing in this thread has ever said that you _did_ presuppose that the so-called Shroud had always been at Turin. Again, if no one had said that, what was the point of controverting it? A fleeting or careless reader might think that you were responding to some utterance actually expressing such a view.
Best again,
John Dillon
On Saturday, March 29, 2008, at 12:15 pm, you wrote:
> Hi, John,
>
> There are sketches from the 14th (also discussions of them in, for
> example, Chaucer) and etchings of later performances.
>
> I found an example from Coventry at:
>
> <
>
> Wakefield at:
>
> <
>
> Also extant are lists of objects to be painted and paid for by the
> towns for the yearly maintenance in records, for instance, from
> Coventry. It may be worthwhile noting that Shakespeare's "great 'O'"
> developed out of the typical open-air, two-story cart used as the
> wheeled performance base for the Mystery plays.
>
> The carts had the dressing rooms on the "first" floor" and the second
>
> floor "stage" open on all sides. The "dressing rooms" were enclosed
> in cloth and usually were painted with emblems related to the guild
> and the guild's theme on each side. The Elizabethan stage also had
> the main performance on the second floor; the stage was elevated and
> had trapdoors to the lower level -- the "balcony" was a third floor.
> The action was, again, visible from all sides. Theatre in the round.
> We have lists of props for the Elizabethan stage, as well.
> Shakespeare certainly saw the Coventry plays; he makes fun of the
> Coventry version of Herod.
>
> Because the mystery plays were still produced as mystery plays in the
>
> 16th-century, we also have have descriptions of the modes of
> performance. Which, of course, included painted props on cloth.
>
> On a further note, the origins of the English mystery plays may be
> older than we have previously thought. Bodleian MS Junius XI (10th
> c.) has four "poems." There appears what may be actor's cues written
> into the text. For example, "eve" written with a ' v ' suddenly
> appears as "eue" one verse before "she" is to speak... and so on.
> This MS has delightful sketched illustrations. (The butt of Lewis
> Carroll's "Anglo-Saxon attitudes" joke.)
>
> [Note: the phoneme attached to the form v/u was the same. That ' v '
> indicated 1st and 'u' indicated 2nd (deuteros) can be seen in the St.
>
> Gall MSS of the ninth-century -- as well as in BN MS Lat. 8824.]
>
> There are also descriptions and etchings on the Sicilian plays and on
>
> the Valenncienes plays.
>
> The bib on the mystery plays is huge. Perhaps you would choose one of
>
> the Cycles that you wish to investigate? In English we have the 32
> plays of the Towneley, the N-Town plays (apparently a compilation
> performed by "professional" actors); the 24 plays of the Chester
> cycle; the 48 plays of the York cycle -- and, unfortunately, only 2
> of the famous and well documented Coventry plays. The last is well
> described as it collected royal audiences -- including Richard III a
> few months before Bosworth) -- Elizabeth I apparently brought quite
> an entourage to see the Coventry performances.
>
> So, yes, the possibility that the shroud was a stage prop is not nil,
>
> whether or not we can come up with a duplicate example of a painted
> crucified man.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rochelle
>
> >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> >Dear John,
> >
> >You are perfectly right in seeing my inclusion of Rochelle's second
> >alinea as confusing the issue. I should not have done that without
> >explaining that it was the theatrical context, and not the
> >geographical one, I was interested in. Sorry.
> >
> > >....Though it would gain credibility were one able to show similar
>
> > double-imaged (with flat-topped heads) textiles that
> > incontrovertibly _were_ created for one of the purposes proposed
> > (theatrical prop or processional banner).
> >
> >Indeed. Of course this is going to be an iconographical search.
> >Pictures showing medieval theatricals are, however, extremely rare.
> >And while, maybe, those showing processions are probably more
> >numerous, I think we will be lucky to find one with just such an
> >image being born in one.
> >
> >Best,
> >
> >
> >Henk
>
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