When we were singing it in 1945 in England that is what we were told, along
with the information about Judges having posies borne before them against
plague contagion in court. I found it interesting, too, that in America the
words are different. I think it is in England we sneeze, 'atishoo, atishoo',
and in America it's the ashes of the plague pits? Have you looked at Cecil
Sharpe? His papers are at Berea College, for he went to the Appalachians to
re-collect lost English folk songs there, which we were then all taught to
sing in school, rather artificially. In the psychology of children there is
a certain stage of very great conservatism, ring songs, counting rhymes,
etc., where the words go on for centuries in the oral tradition, rarely
being written down. But it may be I am wrong.
At 16.07 13/02/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Greetings--
>
>>>It IS about the plague! Oriens.
>
>Have you read Hiscock's arguments?
>
>I bought the plague argument for years until reading what he had to say. To
>summarize--the argument is simple. There is no recorded version of the
>rhyme in written records before 1883. There *might* be one version which
>can be dated back to the late 18th century, but if you look at it (I believe
>it goes "Ring-a-ring-o'-rosies, pocket full of posies, all the girls in our
>town Ring for little Josie") a plague interpretation is a real stretch.
>Furthermore, there are a good ten or twenty other versions in circulation in
>the late 19th century which display all kinds of variations.
>
>I am just very, very reluctant to believe that a rhyme which is first
>recorded in the late 19th century can date that far back without someone
>noticing it. We have quite good records about the Great Plague of 1666, for
>instance--yet no one has yet found a reference to this rhyme being in
>circulation as a reference to the Plague.
>
>To answer another question that's come up--when did this "origin" first
>appear in print? Alt. folklore.urban folks have traced it back to 1961 at
>the earliest so far (e-mailed to me by Judy Johnson):
>
>"How about *The Plague and the Fire* by James Leason, 1961. I found it
>at Frisby State Library. The only reference to 'rosie' is the
>>following:
> Ring a ring of rosy,
> A pockey full of posies,
> Atchoo, atchoo,
> All fall down
> Few people watching a group of children dancing hand-in-hand
> in a circle to this well-known nursery rhyme may realize that
> it had its origin in the plague. Rosy refers to the rosy rash
> of plague, ringed to signify the tokens; the posies were herbs
> and spices to sweeten the air; sneezing was a common sympton
> of those close to death.
>While Leason has many references and footnotes throughout his book,
>there are none associated with this section. So, did Leason just make
>it up? Is he the origin? "
>
>Seriously--following the development of this legend is a hobby of mine. If
>anyone heard the plague explanation before 1961, I'd love to hear it, along
>with any serious scholarly proof (e.g. references in literature, song,
>broadsheet, etc.) that could prove it IS about the plague.
>
>Susan Carroll-Clark
>
>
>
____
Julia Bolton Holloway, [log in to unmask]
Hermit of the Holy Family
via del Partigiano 16, Montebeni, 50014 FIESOLE, ITALY
http://members.aol.com/juliansite/Juliansite.htm
And then God brought merrily to my mind David and other . . . Magdalen,
Peter and Paul, Thomas and Jude, how they are known in the Church on earth,
with their sins and it is to them no shame, but all is turned to worship.
Julian of Norwich, _Showings_, Paris Manuscript, fols. 68-68v.
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