Hi Terry,
Thanks for the prompt reply.
I was doing my best to avoid territorial hyperbole in order to establish some clarity. However you are immediately launching once again into accusatory phrases such as "... the imbalance and the misrepresentation promoted by Art and Design", which I confess I don't find particularly helpful. Such language seems to tell us more about your personal prejudices than about the creative industries. Is it a competition between art and science?
I'll bow out before we disappear down the usual blind alley!
Best wishes,
Martin
Professor Martin Salisbury
Course Leader, MA Children's Book Illustration
Director, The Centre for Children's Book Studies
Cambridge School of Art
0845 196 2351
[log in to unmask]
http://www.cambridgemashow.com
http://www.anglia.ac.uk/ruskin/en/home/microsites/ccbs.html
________________________________________
From: Terence Love [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 11:11 AM
To: Salisbury, Martin; 'PhD-Design - This list is for discussion of PhD studies and related research in Design'
Subject: RE: Invitation: International survey on responsible conduct in research-creation
Hi Martin,
I seem to remember having written a very similar email to you previously.
One of the problems with the more recent UK data is they have not broken out
the subsections of the creative industries. Making things even more opaque
they calculate the value of the creative economy as being much more than
the creative industries, i.e.
'The Creative Economy constitutes all occupations in the Creative
Industries, PLUS all Creative Occupations OUTSIDE the Creative Industries.'
[my emphasis]
In addition, the original definition of creative industries includes many
employment categories that would not normally be considered part of Art and
Design viz.
Marketing and sales directors
Town planning officers
Architectural and town planning technicians
Other skilled trades not otherwise classified(!)
Broadcasting equipment operators
Motion picture, video and television programme distribution
Information technology and telecommunications directors
IT business analysts, architects and systems designers
Other software publishing
Programmers and software development professionals
Computer programming activities
Web design and development professionals
Book publishing
Publishing of directories and mailing lists
Publishing of journals and periodicals
Translation and interpretation activities
Operation of arts facilities
(https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4
99683/CIEE_Methodology.pdf )
In terms of the imbalance and the misrepresentation promoted by Art and
Design, if you look at Table 1 of the GVA of 'Creative Industries'
(2008-2014)
(https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/creative-industries-economic-est
imates-january-2016/creative-industries-economic-estimates-january-2016-key-
findings ) you see that of the 9 sectors of 'Creative Industries' the
technical fields of 'IT, software and computer services' was almost 50% of
the total - with Design: Product, Graphic and Fashion Design together making
up only 3% of the total.
In the Creative Economies picture, the Art & Design and Architecture fields
are a much smaller proportion as it also includes engineering fields,
lawyers etc so rthe elative balance of contribution is even more extreme.
Regards,
Terry
==
Dr Terence Love
PMACM, MISI, MAISA, FDRS, AMIMechE
Director
Design Out Crime & CPTED Centre
Perth, Western Australia
[log in to unmask]
www.designoutcrime.org
+61 (0)4 3497 5848
==
ORCID 0000-0002-2436-7566
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask]
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Salisbury, Martin
Sent: Monday, 10 April 2017 2:27 PM
To: PhD-Design - This list is for discussion of PhD studies and related
research in Design <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Invitation: International survey on responsible conduct in
research-creation
Hi Terry,
Could you clarify the basis of your second point-
"2. Large-scale surveys of the creative industries that show creative
industries as offering a significant contribution to society do so primarily
on the basis of their inclusion of engineering and other technical
disciplines - and these latter typically form the main economic and
employment contribution (examples include the national surveys in the UK
and Australia)."
I am not suggesting that it is not true but can't find anything to
substantiate it. Richard Florida's views are interesting but I'm not sure
how typical they are.
At http://www.thecreativeindustries.co.uk the 'industries' listed are
advertising, architecture, arts & culture, craft, design, fashion, games,
music, publishing, tech, TV & film. A more detailed table of these (and
sub-sectors) the UK government's breakdown of creative industries can be
found via the link below , under '2.2: Standard Industrial Classification
used in Creative Industries sub-sector estimates' -
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/57
8932/DCMS_Sectors_Economic_Estimates_-_Methodology.pdf
These are the definitions used in 2016 to calculate the £87 billion value of
the UK creative industries (5.3% of UK GVA). They do seem to comprise of
'areas taught in Art and Design and Architecture'. So perhaps, in the UK at
least, this is not entirely a 'misleading public media promotion'?
Of course I am not suggesting that 'creativity' is not key to many areas of
the sciences such as maths and engineering, just trying to clarify commonly
accepted definitions of 'creative industries'.
Best wishes,
Martin
Professor Martin Salisbury
Course Leader, MA Children's Book Illustration Director, The Centre for
Children's Book Studies Cambridge School of Art
0845 196 2351
[log in to unmask]
http://www.cambridgemashow.com
http://www.anglia.ac.uk/ruskin/en/home/microsites/ccbs.html
________________________________________
From: PhD-Design - This list is for discussion of PhD studies and related
research in Design [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Terence Love
[[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 1:57 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Invitation: International survey on responsible conduct in
research-creation
Dear Phillipe,
In support of Fil, and agreeing broadly with your and Ken's comments, there
are three other factors relating to the inclusion of Engineering and other
technical fields into 'research-creation'.
1. Richard Florida's research and publications on creative
industries/creative cities/creative culture, which are often seen as a key
reference, place Engineering, Law and other non-Art creative disciplines as
central and the main drivers of creative industry, creative economies and
the creative culture.
2. Large-scale surveys of the creative industries that show creative
industries as offering a significant contribution to society do so primarily
on the basis of their inclusion of engineering and other technical
disciplines - and these latter typically form the main economic and
employment contribution (examples include the national surveys in the UK
and Australia).
3. The idea that the creative industries primarily comprises the areas
taught in Art and Design and Architecture appears to be a misleading public
media promotion of the latter sub-fields, particularly Art. It can be seen
most clearly if commentaries from those fields about the literature in the
previous two points are compared with the actual literature.
Regards,
Terry
==
Dr Terence Love
PMACM, MISI, MAISA, FDRS, AMIMechE
Director
Design Out Crime & CPTED Centre
Perth, Western Australia
[log in to unmask]
www.designoutcrime.org
+61 (0)4 3497 5848
==
ORCID 0000-0002-2436-7566
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask]
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ken Friedman
Sent: Sunday, 9 April 2017 10:42 PM
To: PhD-Design <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Invitation: International survey on responsible conduct in
research-creation
The label “research-creation” seems in some way to focus on the forms of
research identified as 1) practice based research, 2) practice led research,
3) artistic research, and 4) the outlier “practice as research” position. As
Philippe notes, the venture cuts across all fields that are “project-based,
or action-based, or practise-based.”
It doesn’t necessarily seem to claim that these are the only these fields
involving creativity. Nevertheless, I can see the problem that Fil raises.
At a meeting of Australian deans on the subject of research, I heard one
dean argue for the validity of “creative research outputs” on the basis that
“art and design carry our culture.” It seems to me that all fields of human
activity “carry our culture.” At least that is what the social and
behavioral sciences tell us.
A great deal of the contemporary debate involving design research suggests
that design is somehow different to other research fields — this may be true
to the degree that mathematics differs to physics, physics differs to
musicology, and musicology differs to economics. But the actual practice of
any field at the highest level involves creation and creativity.
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