Dear Martin
Actually, I am not that keen on insisting on a definitive distinction between design and not design without having a sense of the consequences of that distinction, for example, re. education, tools, or theories of design. (Is a design theory ruined or enriched when photography is included in its domain of explanations?)
One of my better ph.d students wrote her dissertation on how photographs, taken at a scene of public interest, travel through various journalistic channels until they are published. To succeed always required specifications as to what these photographs depict, what they reveal, and why they should be mass produced. We realized that most photographs are meaningless unless accomplished by a narrative that provides the context to interpret them. As these photographs are passed through these channels, stakeholders recontextualize them repeatedly until they are printed with a caption and a written narrative ( usually not by the photographer) that may or may not conform with the latter's intentions. In any case, distributing them to different readers may result in various interpretations and contexts of use.
I dare say that this process is not too unlike what product designers experience. Their ideas always face stakeholders that have their own say in what happens to them. What reaches a market is shaped and reshaped largely by the processes beyond the designers' control. It may not end up as what designers intended, perhaps better or perhaps worse. In any case a design faces many different and often unanticipated uses.
To call one design and the other not seems to me quite arbitrary and smells of a hidden agenda that I wished would be articulated before settling on one.
Klaus
The proc
Sent from my iPhone
> On Sep 17, 2015, at 4:32 AM, Salisbury, Martin <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Dear Klaus,
>
> Far be it from me to speak on behalf of Terry, but I suspect the issue here centres around Terry's oft stated personal preference for a definition of design as a specification for something- the 'something' then goes on to be realised or manufactured by others. If I understand correctly, Terry sees areas where design and making are integrated as something separate from design, that can be called 'art' or 'craft'. This is a definition that excludes most of what I am interested in and involved with and perhaps explains why there is so much semantic tennis around the issue. Again, if I understand correctly, Terry sees areas where design converges with 'art' as inconvenient to the nailing of theoretical frameworks.
>
> I am very happy to be corrected if I have misunderstood!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Martin
>
> Professor Martin Salisbury
> Course Leader, MA Children's Book Illustration
> Director, The Centre for Children's Book Studies
> Cambridge School of Art
> 0845 196 2351
> [log in to unmask]
>
> http://www.cambridgemashow.com
>
> http://www.anglia.ac.uk/ruskin/en/home/microsites/ccbs.html
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>
> ________________________________________
> From: PhD-Design - This list is for discussion of PhD studies and related research in Design [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Klaus Krippendorff [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015 9:14 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Design theory - do photographers design?
>
> terry,
>
> i have difficulty understanding what you are asking.
> i think i gave you my answers before you ask these questions (some to me quite incomprehensible).
>
> for example, i have read the following question of yours many times:
>
> " What is the design from which the photograph as a product is made?"
>
> does a design have to be made from something?
> do you make a distinction between the photograph as such and the photograph as a product?
>
> surely photographers produce something that wasn't there to begin with.
> is it really important to you to ask from what a photograph is made: paper, an electronic file, or projected on a screen?
> the point i was making is that photography starts with a process of experiencing something and making selections in view of what others do not experience but might be interested in seeing as well and communicating that selection in one of many forms to those who would thereafter be able to see something they had not experienced themselves (not necessarily as experienced by the photographer).
>
> we have one process linked to another process by a medium (a design).
>
> klaus
>
>
>
>
>
> ----Original Message-----
> From: Terence Love [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2015 8:33 PM
> To: Klaus Krippendorff; 'PhD-Design - This list is for discussion of PhD studies and related research in Design'
> Subject: Re: Design theory - do photographers design?
>
> Hi, Klaus,
>
> What is the design from which the photograph as a product is made?
>
> Where in the professional designerly photographic process does the creation of the design occur that is then used to create the photographic image?
>
> What format does this design take?
>
> I can see that such a design might include a pre-decided and recorded/written down a list of lighting instructions, location and timeline of shoot, decisions about camera settings, decisions about image composition, decisions about the steps of digital post-processing, etc
>
> I suggest that where this happens the activity is a Design activity and a design process.
>
> In contrast, where these are done ad-hoc and live then I'd suggest it is better considered as an Art activity and an art process?
>
> Best wishes,
> Terry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [log in to unmask]
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Klaus Krippendorff
> Sent: Thursday, 17 September 2015 3:36 AM
> To: PhD-Design - This list is for discussion of PhD studies and related research in Design
> Subject: [SPAM] Re: Design theory - do photographers design?
>
> I think the issue of design being a verb or a noun is also applicable to photographs.
>
> Yes, at one point a photograph is a noun. But could it be an object without a human being able to create it, to handle it, and to articulate the perception of it belonging to a category of objects that come to live only in the process of interpreting it?
>
> To me a photograph resides in the interaction between a viewer and the viewed. It entail a process. Good photographers are not robots who can press the button of a camera, they are likely to have a sense of what viewers may find interested when engaging with their creations. When photographing succeeds, it results in conveying something that photographers saw and found appealing -- relating two processes expressable in two verbs.
>
> Klaus
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Sep 16, 2015, at 2:56 PM, Paul Mike Zender <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> Ken:
>>
>> I responded to Terry's incorrect assertion that design doesn't result
>> in
> made objects, but if we accept his (incorrect) definition then photographers are not designers because their work definitely, always, makes an object:
> the photograph. It's what photographers do, they make photographs.
>>
>> Hence, I believe Terry answered his own question: photographers in
>> Terry's
> world are not designers.
>>
>> Based on out past conversations I realize you see design more as a
>> verb
> than a noun, and as you know and I just have articulated I see it as both verb and noun. Designers have always (in recorded history) been craftspersons plus strategizes. Design does not work on the think system (Professor Harold Hill, the Music Man).
>>
>> Best...
>>
>> Mike Zender
>>
>> University of Cincinnati
>> Visible Language
>>
>>
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