medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Thanks, John. I think it was the road along the north bank - little more than a track, really. This was in the early 1980s. The advice in the guide books was to drive so far then walk but my husband actually loves driving on that kind of road! It was quite early in the year and we were told there was too much water in the river and we wouldn't get across. I imagine it's much easier now, but it was well worth the trip even then - strongly recommended if list members are ever in that part of Sicily.

Maddy

Madeleine Gray PhD, FRHistS, FSA
Professor of Ecclesiastical History/Athro Hanes Eglwysig
School of Humanities and Social Sciences /Ysgol Ddyniaethau a Gwyddoniaethau Cymdeithasol
University of South Wales/Prifysgol De Cymru
Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion,
Newport/Casnewydd  NP18 3QT Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675
http://www.southwales.ac.uk
http://twitter.com/penrhyspilgrim
http://twitter.com/HeritageUSW
http://twitter.com/USWHistory

'Let the victors, when they come, When the forts of folly fall, Find thy body by the wall!'

________________________________________
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of John Dillon [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2015 5:14 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] SS. Pietro e Paolo d'Agrò (WAS: Re: [M-R] Fictive brickwork (in churches))

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Maddy,

Access: I'm guessing that you went up the coast road from Taormina and turned west on Strada provinciale 18 and went up along the north bank of the Agrò until you turned off to go uphill along a secondary stream. Dragging the satellite photograph here might help orient you:
http://www.medioevosicilia.eu/markIII/monastero-dei-ss-pietro-e-paolo-presso-casalvecchio-siculo/

Another way involves crossing the Agrò, whose broad bed would probably have stuck in your mind. That way involves turning west from the coast road a little sooner and following Strada provinciale 12 along the south bank of the Agrò to the vicinity of Scifi, then dropping down to river level and crossing on a bridge, followed by going uphill on the other side. Early C20 guidebooks, written long before the age of modern motor coaches, showed this as the preferred route and noted that when the Agrò was dry you could actually cross its bed in your car.

Either way takes you along blacktop roads in the mountains where washouts can make travel slower than a simple glance at a map would suggest. The photographs here might refresh your memory a bit:
http://tinyurl.com/o8z2g28

There's yet another route, a bit further north and longer but now better paved: S.p. 19 from the coast to Casalvecchio Siculo and thence winding downslope through the terraces toward the church:
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Percorso_per_raggiungere_laChiesa_dei_Santi_Pietro_e_Paolo.jpg

Best again,
John

On 04/22/15, Madeleine Gray wrote
>
> Lovely photos. If I ever took any they would be old-fashioned prints. Is it still as difficult of access?
>
> Maddy
>
> Madeleine Gray PhD, FRHistS, FSA
> Professor of Ecclesiastical History/Athro Hanes Eglwysig
> School of Humanities and Social Sciences /Ysgol Ddyniaethau a Gwyddoniaethau Cymdeithasol
> University of South Wales/Prifysgol De Cymru
> Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion,
> Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675
> http://www.southwales.ac.uk
> http://twitter.com/penrhyspilgrim
> http://twitter.com/HeritageUSW
> http://twitter.com/USWHistory
>
> 'Let the victors, when they come, When the forts of folly fall, Find thy body by the wall!'
>
>
>
> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Laura Jacobus [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 11:19 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [M-R] SS. Pietro e Paolo d'Agrò (WAS: Re: [M-R] Fictive brickwork (in churches))
>
>
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture What fantastic buildings! Especially SS Pietro e Paolo d'Agro. I agree with Maddy that brick=poor is too simplistic, and with John that brick=cheap(er). The views don't seem incompatible to me, as what so many of these examples show (including the Tudor buildings of early posts) is that there were ways of making brick act above its station, so that it coudl be a relatively cheap way of being relatively showy. the same is true of some of the fictive brickwork we saw in earlier posts: it may not be the Sistine Chapel, but it's a cut above plain whitewash.
>
> all best
>
>
> Laura
>
>
> Dr. Laura Jacobus Senior Lecturer in History of Art
> Birkbeck College, University of London
>
>
>
> For details of my book on Giotto and the Arena Chapel see http://www.brepols.net/Pages/ShowProduct.aspx?prod_id=IS-9781905375127-1
>
>
>
>
> On 22 April 2015 at 09:45, John Dillon <[log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask])" target="1">[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> >
> > Dear All,
> >
> > At the risk of re-opening a now closed discussion, herewith a follow-up to a post from Maddy Gray a couple of weeks back.
> >
> > The restored church of which Maddy speaks, Santi Pietro e Paolo d'Agrò, is indeed spectacular. Situated on a ridge overlooking the fiumara d'Agrò (a seasonal stream, torrential in late winter / early spring), it lies within today's _comune_ of Casalvecchio Siculo (ME) but is well outside the latter's medieval nucleus. Although it is very largely of brick, it's difficult to see how it works as an example of brick's having been a prestigious building material. Indeed, if there's anything prestigious in its fabric it's in the stonework with which this twelfth-century building is adorned. Herewith some Italian-language accounts with good views of the church:
> > http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiesa_dei_Santi_Pietro_e_Paolo_d%27Agr%C3%B2
> > http://www.medioevosicilia.eu/markIII/monastero-dei-ss-pietro-e-paolo-presso-casalvecchio-siculo/
> >
> > Whereas much of the stone present in this building could have been cut from boulders lying along the nearby course of the stream or have come from nearby beds of one or another sort of rock, neither the black stone nor the white is local. The black is _pietra lavica_ and will have come ultimately from the flanks of Mt. Etna, probably from a quarry or quarries in the valley of the Alcantara (which latter debouches rather well to the south of Taormina). The origin of the bright white stone used in the interlaces of the exterior pilasters of the apses and over the main entrance is undetermined but if it is Sicilian the nearest deposits will have been in the area around Siracusa, even further to the south. Conceivably it's spolia, in which case the most likely sources will be either Taormina or the since vanished remains of the Roman city of Phoinix situated along the coast to the north of the mouth of the fiumara d'Agrò (the columns in the church's interior are thought to have come from ruins at Scifi, some three kilometers distant from the presumed location of now lost Phoinix). These two types of stone occur in parts of the church added or rebuilt in 1172 by the architect Girard the Frank. The original structure of ca. 1117 will not have been so fancy.
> >
> > The brick, on the other hand, is very local: analysis of its aggregates suggests that it was made from alluvial deposits of the fiumara d'Agrò down below. It is generally supposed that there is so much of it because its production practically on-site was less expensive than the alternative of procuring comparable amounts of building stone. This seems to have been true as well for the similarly situated originally early twelfth-century Greek monastery churches of Santi Pietro e Paolo d'Itala in Itala Superiore (ME) in NE Sicily and of San Giovanni Theristis in Bivongi (RC) in southern Calabria:
> > Santi Pietro e Paolo d'Itala:
> > http://tinyurl.com/mhn2w68
> > http://www.panoramio.com/photo/7076520
> > http://www.medioevosicilia.eu/markIII/wp-content/gallery/itala/itala-3.jpg
> > San Giovanni Theristis:
> > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Monastero_da_Lontano.jpg
> > http://www.guardavalle.eu/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/010.JPG
> > http://www.vivikaulon.it/wp-content/gallery/san-giovanni-therestis-bivongi/DSCF3752.jpg
> >
> > Similarly, the Norman-period sanctuary area and apses of the later much rebuilt Greek monastery church of San Filippo di Demenna (or di Fragalà) at Frazzanò (ME) in NE Sicily show considerable structural use of brick with stone used primarily as a facing material. Here the brick has been shown to be from the same geologic formation -- though not from the identical spot within it -- as that found in the remains of the church's eighth- or early ninth-century predecessor and is thus quite certainly local. Some views:
> > http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/64065528.jpg
> > http://www.medioevosicilia.eu/markIII/wp-content/gallery/san-filippo-di-fragala/demenna-2.jpg
> >
> > Lesser but still considerable amounts of brickwork appear in the other surviving originally late eleventh- or early twelfth-century Greek monastic churches in NE Sicily, Santi Alfio, Filadelfio e Cirino at San Fratello (ME), built over a Byzantine predecessor, and Santa Maria di Mili at Mili San Pietro (ME):
> > Santi Alfio, Filadelfio e Cirino:
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/peppe_lazzara/9649031414/
> > https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4013/4242793728_2865f1e2be_b.jpg
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/peppe_lazzara/9649027574/
> > Santa Maria di Mili:
> > http://www.medioevosicilia.eu/markIII/wp-content/gallery/monastero-di-s-maria-di-mili/mili-15.jpg
> > http://www.medioevosicilia.eu/markIII/wp-content/gallery/monastero-di-s-maria-di-mili/mili-4.jpg
> > http://www.medioevosicilia.eu/markIII/wp-content/gallery/monastero-di-s-maria-di-mili/mili-1.jpg
> >
> > All of these churches are expressions of the later eleventh- and earlier twelfth-century Greek monastic expansion promoted (but not directly funded) by counts Roger I and Roger II in rural territories in their Sicilian and southern Calabrian domains. The religious communities who built them were not initially wealthy, though a few later became so. The materials that they used seem to have been largely those that lay close to hand. Their extensive brickwork may not have been cheap to produce (though in at least most instances the wood needed to fire the kilns will have come from the monasteries' own land) but it will have cost less than would the equivalent amount of stone blocks of sufficient size and durability. In this case, as in that of the overwhelmingly brick architecture of the Cistercian churches erected in the Po basin during the earlier twelfth century, brick will have been used as a less expensive alternative to stone.
> >
> > Best,
> > John Dillon
> >
> > On 04/10/15, Madeleine Gray wrote:
> > >
> > > I have a very vague memory of the spectacular basilica of S Pietro e Paulo in the hills north of Taormina which is a C12 structure with quite a lot of brick. Tbh my main recollection is of the terrifying drive there, along a stream bed which ran through lemon groves and had turned into a sort of dilute lemonade! but it was a fascinating building.
> > >
> > > I know this doesn't really help with fictive brick, but I really don't think the brickwork = cheap = poor approach works.
> > >
> > > Maddy
> > >
> > > Madeleine Gray PhD, FRHistS, FSA
> > > Professor of Ecclesiastical History/Athro Hanes Eglwysig
> > > School of Humanities and Social Sciences /Ysgol Ddyniaethau a Gwyddoniaethau Cymdeithasol
> > > University of South Wales/Prifysgol De Cymru
> > > Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion,
> > > Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675(tel:%2B44%20%280%291633.432675)
> > > http://www.southwales.ac.uk
> > > http://twitter.com/penrhyspilgrim
> > > http://twitter.com/HeritageUSW
> > > http://twitter.com/USWHistory
> > >
> > > 'Let the victors, when they come, When the forts of folly fall, Find thy body by the wall!'
> > >
> > > ________________________________________
> > > From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [[log in to unmask](javascript:main.compose()] on behalf of John Dillon [[log in to unmask](javascript:main.compose()]
> > > Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 6:49 PM
> > > To: [log in to unmask](javascript:main.compose()
> > > Subject: Re: [M-R] Fictive brickwork (in churches)
> > >
> > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> > >
> > > Well, perhaps. Brick was also used extensively in marshy and other low-lying areas throughout the Po basin. After reading in Hills' book (cited in my previous post) about the fictive brickwork in the Frari and in SS. Giovanni e Paolo I had a look at some online views of the latter church, e.g. at right here:
> > > http://tinyurl.com/k695ugo
> > > and came to the provisional conclusion that from a distance a useful guide for spotting such work would be the relative regularity of the rectangles.
> > >
> > > The pilaster at right here is a possible instance from Milan's basilica di Sant'Eustorgio, also a mendicant church (it's the city's chief Dominican church, much re-worked in the later Middle Ages):
> > > http://tinyurl.com/ltnvyar
> > > This looks modern but I wonder whether it overlies or replaces an earlier treatment of the same sort.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > John Dillon
> > >
> > > On 04/10/15, Sarah Wilkins wrote:
> > > > Venice, with its more extensive use of brick as building material due to material considerations, might be an exceptional case?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I believe that Santo Stefano has fictive brick diaper pattern designs in its upper levels as well.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sarah
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 11:14 AM, Laura Jacobus <[log in to unmask](javascript:main.compose() <[log in to unmask](javascript:main.compose()')" target="1">[log in to unmask](javascript:main.compose()> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Jim, you've hit the nail on the head with your query, as I'm trying to decide whether the example I've come across was a functional solution to a problem (ie. a temporary finish), a purely decorative finish, or one which has any deeper significance. From the Medart-L list I got the idea of checking out SS Giovanni e Paolo and the Frari in Venice, and they both have fictive brickwork as their default wall-surfaces. Embarrassingly, I hadn't spotted this, despite being in one of them a few weeks ago. That suggests that it was an acceptable decorative surface, though arguably as these were Dominican and Franciscan houses it might also have been the 'poor' option as opposed to painted stone.
> > > > >
> > > > > al best
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Laura
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dr. Laura Jacobus Senior Lecturer in History of Art
> > > > > Birkbeck College, University of London
> > > > >

**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
To send a message to the list, address it to:
[log in to unmask]
To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion
to: [log in to unmask]
In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
[log in to unmask]
For further information, visit our web site:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion

**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
To send a message to the list, address it to:
[log in to unmask]
To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion
to: [log in to unmask]
In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
[log in to unmask]
For further information, visit our web site:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion