medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
On 5/7/2012 1:17 PM, Christopher Crockett wrote:
> i'm having a hard time putting this/these object(s) in early 8th c. Spain
From: Genevra Kornbluth <[log in to unmask]>
> It is generally thought that the saints on the one side predate the
Carolingian imagery on the other side.
though this idea doesn't really have quite the same force that the old concept
"buildings were built from the bottom up" does, it is probably true
nonetheless.
i'm not really saying that the apostle ivories *are* 11th c., just that
certain aspects of them *look* like they could be --or at least look more like
11th c. work than, say, early 8th c. Spanish work.
>As far as I know there are no marks from hinges. A 1985 exhibition catalogue
suggests that the plaques began life as part of a series representing the
apostles rather than a diptych.
sounds reasonable.
panels on a cathedra, or something like that.
cf. the marvelous chance-survival, "Throne of Maximianus"
http://nlfaculty.dcccd.edu/mcclung/Images/AACCVIB0.jpg
with its apostles
http://www.oberlin.edu/images/Art335/335-075.JPG
(note the halos --not chrysanthemums at all, but sea shells)
>That seems reasonable, though It is not at all clear to me how such a series
would have been organized.
one after the other, from the ground up, presumably...
> You will find related stone sculpture at various sites in Visigothic
Spain.
though few on this planet at the present time are more Visigothically
Challenged than i, many exemplars of "Visigothic Style" from the sites you
cite (listed below) seem to bare out my 11th c. non-argument, at least in a
negative sort of way (negative evidence of a non-argument not necessarily
being positive evidence, of course).
i note that the figure/drapery style(s) on *none* of the VG stone sculptures
resemble, in the slightest, those found on our ivories:
http://www.kornbluthphoto.com/images/HarrachDipt2.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27305838@N04/4831930348/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/canecrabe/4586037428/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stavlokratz/1298453238/in/photostream/lightbox
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stavlokratz/1298451864/in/photostream/lightbox
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stavlokratz/1298450536/lightbox/
there is, however, a certain similarity in the fact that the VG sculptor(s)
does seem to have a certain facility with the replication of Beasties over
that of rational drapery articulation
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stavlokratz/1313781323/lightbox/http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulayjesus/5064081453/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/llara/2243982971/lightbox/
but, we may presume that ẏmagiers working in stone, while not necessarily
arising from the ranks of simple masons, very likely did not have the
advantages of the same high level of _formation_ in the discipline of
visualizing complex images as did their [perhaps] colleagues who worked in
much more precious media like ivory.
also interesting to note is the appearance of that somewhat unusual
"chrysanthemum" halo motif (a "misunderstanding" of the "shell" tradition
visible on the Maximianus throne?).
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stavlokratz/1277955532/lightbox/
(ca. 545–553, probably carved in Constantinople, now in Ravenna)
overall, these VG guys were more into "pattern" than into what we might term
"figural" art (except for the wonderful beasties, who are, however, always on
the verge of breaking down into pattern)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulayjesus/6276664891/lightbox/
that shot also demonstrates that they were also rather good masons --their
ashlar work is certainly impressive, though, somewhat like their drapery
articulation, not entirely "rational."
note the rather astonishing (to me at least) treatment of the stones along the
bottom of that window
http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulayjesus/6276664891/lightbox/
the upper surface of the right stone of the sill is cut on two levels, one
which "works" with the stones of the right wall and one --about an inch or two
lower-- which defines the level of the sill itself. the stone on the left is
also cut on two levels, though there the cut is only for a short distance.
curious, too, is the way the column bases have been *let in* to the sill
stones --i don't think i've ever seen that before.
(though that business of cutting down the stones on two levels is somewhat
reminiscent of wonderful Inca stone work --as is the apparent absence of the
use of mortar in both cultures.)
doing stuff like that means a *lot* of extra work.
why do it that way?
especially when just hewing out regular ashlar stones would have meant much
less labor (time =ing money, even in ces temps la).
perhaps it is analogous to the somewhat "piecemeal" approach to envisioning
drapery patterning...
or, not.
c
>Compare e.g. the reliefs from Quintanilla de las Vinas
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/27305838@N04/4831930348/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/canecrabe/4586037428/
> and from San Pedro de la Nave
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/stavlokratz/1298453238/in/photostream/
> (Peter, with book)
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/stavlokratz/1298451864/in/photostream/
> (Paul, with ?scroll)
> http://www.flickriver.com/photos/tags/sanpedrodelanave/interesting/ (a
> nice collection of images of the church and sculpture; 3rd down is
> Philip, an early image I had forgotten)
>
> I am rather fond of the gryphons myself. Anyone who likes such beast
> might enjoy my gryphons page:
> http://www.kornbluthphoto.com/Gryphons.html
>
> best,
> Genevra
>
>
> On 5/7/2012 1:17 PM, Christopher Crockett wrote:
> >> i'm having a hard time putting this/these object(s) in early 8th c.
Spain
> >>
> >> gosh, those opposing griffins are nicely done.
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