medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
On 04/02/2011 19:19, Christopher Crockett wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> From: John Briggs<[log in to unmask]>
>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> Regards,
>
> Regards, yourself.
Sorry, that was supposed to be snipped...
>> On 04/02/2011 17:42, Christopher Crockett wrote:
>
>>> come to think of it, i can't think of ever having seen any early written
> evidences of "chapter houses" in any sort of source --save for a considerable
> number of charters, which are said to have been issued "in capitulum" (which
> i don't take to mean exactly the same thing).
>>
>> Why not? The chapter house would have been the most convenient available
> room.
>
> assuming that there was such an one.
I'm sure we've got C11 and early C12 examples in England. Boxgrove
Priory was Benedictine.
> all i intended there was that "in capitulum" (as i dimly understand the term)
> means something much closer to "in [the meeting of the] chapter" --which,
> theoretically, could have occurred anywhere.
>
> yes, presumably a "room" off the cloister is what is, apparently, meant by the
> them "chapter house" in modren parlance (i can't think of any separate
> *buildings* which "housed" the chapter meetings in French Benedictine
> practice), but "in capitulum" could have taken place in such a room or
> anywhere else (in the church itself?) which happened to be be convenient or
> appropriate to the circumstances of the business at hand of the meeting in
> question.
>
>> But the Sarum "Missa in capitulo" *wasn't* celebrated in the chapter house -
> it seems to have been celebrated in the presence of the entire chapter, either
> before or after the chpter meeting.
>
> this term i do not know --don't think i've ever encountered it in my charter
> work.
>
> in any event, the cathedral of Sarum, with its associated Benedictine monks,
> is hardly relevant to the French (or Italian, Ste Croce) Benedictine practice,
> which is what i assume Jim intended to refer to when he wrote "Burials of at
> least abbots were quite common in monastic chapter houses."
Salisbury cathedral was, of course, secular - I just gave this example
to support *your* interpretation of the phrase.
I don't think Jim was restricting himself to particular countries - or
particular Orders.
>>> did the Cistercians plant their Main Guys in the chapter "house"?
>>> i've seen a few drawerings of tombs in the walls of choirs (there are the
>>> quite nice sculpted [architectural] remains of at least one pre-1150 example
>>> at Pontigny --Hugh of Macon, i believe), but in chapter houses?
>>
>> Burial in a chapter house was, I believe, quite normal in an English
> monastic context.
>
> yeahbut, the "English monastic context" was not entirely "normal," was it?
> esp. if you include that curious, kinky institution of "monastic" cathedral
> chapters.
Actually, I wasn't including cathedrals - I think Priors were quite keen
to be buried in "their" cathedral, for ome reason...
>> But only the Carthusians seem to have had altars in
>> their chapter houses.
I was still talking about England (for the "only" bit - Carthusians had
altars in chapter houses elsewhere, obviously.)
> now that i think about it --and i'd have to look at my charters again to be
> sure-- there were perhaps quite a few [Benedictine] charters (11th-12th c.)
> which mention a "gift" (usually a knife, _cutellum_ or a "baton" _baculum_)
> being placed "super altar[e?]" as a symbol for the gift [usually of property]
> which is being "memorialized" in the text of the charter.
>
> as i understand it, the gift (of property) was made verbally before the
> chapter and other witnesses (ex botha partes) --usually "in capitulum"-- and
> was "memorialized" in the charter written for that specific purpose, and
> solemnized by the symbolic offering which was placed "on the altar."
>
> ergo, there was an altar in the place where the chapter was meeting ("in
> capitulum") --wherever the hell that might have been.
>
> ergo sum, the meeting either took place in [a chapel of] the church, or there
> was an altar in the "chapter house[/room]" --or the meeting was held before or
> after the ceremony of "gift giving" occurred (in the church, "super altare
> Sancti Petri," or wherever), and the record was made (and read out?) in the
> chapter meeting (later)?
>
> i never paid much attention to the tenses of the verbs used in the text, which
> might make this sequence of events somewhat clearer.
I'm not quite sure what you are arguing - are you using your evidence
for or against altars, or for or against chapter houses?
John Briggs
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