Dear Elaine,
Thanks for this! It occurs to me that the practice of humiliation of relics wouldn´t work unless the saint is envisioned
as lord/owner, and I wonder if other list members can trace the beginnings of the idea in the early middle ages? In particular, I´m wondering if there are differences in different genres of writing (such as legal documents - land sales in particular) and whether distinctions are ever made between 'the church' and 'the saint.' And what happens if there is more than one saint? Presumably it is the titular saint who owns the property, are there ever examples of a non-titular saint owning property? There must be wills in which people make donations to 'St. X at the church of Y' (most likely in the expectation of masses for their souls), but I´m wondering if (say) the Virgin Mary, with a chapel in the church of St. Martin, is ever seen as an active patron/ownder in this way. Now I will go and order those books!
Meg
"The idea of “property of the saints” was a natural outgrowth of notions of holy places, and is implicit in discussions of asylum, sacred precincts, etc. That sacralized geography seemed to take on overtones of lordship in the “feudal age” – granting the saints (and their servants) the attendant rights of justice and income."
In this regard (well, in all regards, since it is a superb book) I recommend Dominique Iogna-Prat, La Maison-Dieu: Une histoire monumentale de l’Église au Moyen Âge (v. 800-v. 1200) (Paris, 2006). This is a history of the meaning of monuments, and it is filled with the author’s keen insight into the material manifestations and settings of Christianity as medieval people understood them. For the idea of property of the saints: s.v. “terre sainte,” and “terres des saints” in the (really great) index. Great bibliography; nice footnotes.
Recently, I’ve come across the notion that saints were lords, with all the attendant political – and military -- power and the property to exert that power, in two specific cases. Both come from the high middle ages, but then that's my particular scholarly focus ...
1) As a ploy to reclaim church property that had been alienated to the laity. On this, see esp. Reinhold Kaiser, “Quêtes itinérantes avec des reliques pour financer la construction des églises (XIe – XIIe siècles),” Le Moyen Âge 101/2 (1995): 205-25, esp. at 209 with references in note 15.
2) The rather more theatrical incident in which Louis le Gros does fealty to Saint Denis [and the eponymous monastery, of course] for the Vexin, and receives the vexillum as a token of that pledge. Lindy Grant has a great discussion, with a deft sorting of previous scholarship: Abbot Suger of St.-Denis: Church and State in Early Twelfth-century France (London and New York, 1998), esp. pp. 112-19. Iogna-Prat discusses this, too, within its broader ideological context: Maison Dieu, 533-35.
Much in both cases that warrant further research. Dissertations, anyone?
Elaine
Elaine M. Beretz, Ph.D.
Research Associate
Center for Visual Culture
Bryn Mawr College
101 Merion Avenue
Bryn Mawr, PA 19010-2899
--- On Sun, 2/14/10, Linda S. Olson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> From: Linda S. Olson <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: [M-R] 'Dominus' in 'Saint...' place-names
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 1:17 PM
> medieval-religion: Scholarly
> discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> Would it be possible to post this to the list?
>
> Gratefully,
> Linda
>
>
>
> Linda S. Olson, Ph.D.
> Department of World Languages & Literatures, and
> International Programs, Study Abroad Coordinator
> Southern Connecticut State University
> 501 Crescent St. New Haven, CT
> 06515
> Engleman Hall, Room B-129
> 203.392.6975
> ________________________________________
> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religious culture [[log in to unmask]]
> On Behalf Of Cormack, Margaret Jean [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 11:55 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [M-R] 'Dominus' in 'Saint...' place-names
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religion and culture
>
> Dear Elaine,
> For reasons unrelated to the original query, I (and
> possibly others) would love that bibliography
> on property of the saints!
> Meg
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religious culture on behalf of Elaine Beretz
> Sent: Sun 14.2.2010 10:49
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [M-R] 'Dominus' in 'Saint...' place-names
>
>
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religion and culture
>
> I'm wondering if the word "dominus" in these cases refers
> to the "lordship" of the saint; i.e. in the sense of being
> lord of a "dominium" = the property ceded to -- then
> controlled by -- the saints and those who minister for
> them.
>
> Certainly it would fit well in the context of probate, esp.
> when there is a question of rents/tithes involved.
>
> Have bibliography somewhere about the concept of the
> "property of the saints." Will be happy to perform an
> "excavation" in my files, if this seems a fruitful line of
> inquiry.
>
> Elaine
>
> Elaine M. Beretz, Ph.D.
> Research Associate
> Center for Visual Culture
> Bryn Mawr College
> 101 Merion Avenue
> Bryn Mawr, PA 19010-2899
>
>
> --- On Sun, 2/14/10, Madeleine Gray <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Madeleine Gray <[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: [M-R] 'Dominus' in 'Saint...'
> place-names
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Date: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 8:38 AM
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of
> > medieval religion and culture
> > [M-R] 'Dominus' in
> > 'Saint...' place-names
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At first I thought it might be because neither
> > Dyfrig nor Gwenardd was formally canonized - but the
> > reference to dominus Petrus in Bristol seem to rule
> that
> > out.
> > It's not a
> > specifically Welsh usage that I'm aware of,
> > anyway.
> >
> > Maddy
> >
> >
> >
> > Dr
> > Madeleine Gray
> > Reader in History
> > School
> > of Education/Ysgol Addysg
> > University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru,
> > Casnewydd
> > Caerleon
> > Campus/Campws Caerllion,
> > Newport/Casnewydd
> > NP18 3QT Tel:
> > +44 (0)1633.432675
> >
> > 'You
> > may not be able to change the world but at least you
> can
> > embarrass the guilty'
> > (Jessica Mitford)
> >
> >
> >
> > From: medieval-religion
> > - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture
> on
> > behalf of John Briggs
> > Sent: Sat 13/02/2010 11:39 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: [M-R] 'Dominus' in
> > 'Saint...' place-names
> >
> >
> >
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions
> > of medieval religion and culture
> >
> > I've cross-posted this to "Medieval Religion"
> > to see if anyone there can throw some light on this.
> The
> > dates in question are 1537 and 1549, so I suggested
> > Protestant sensitivity. Another suggestion was
> influence
> > from early French, where dampnedeu is 'lord god'
> > (from dominus deus), Dampnemarie is Mary, Dampierre is
> St.
> > Peter.
> >
> > John Briggs
> >
> > ---- John Freeman <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > I have come across a few examples in a calendar of
> 16th
> > century Herefordshire probate documents such as this
> (as
> > printed):
> >
> > William Dusy of Domini Dubritii (referring to St
> Devereux
> > parish)
> > John ap Jenckyng of Domini Wenardi (St Weonards
> parish)
> >
> > The editor tells me the Latin original was de
> parochia
> > Domini Dubritii etc., which explains the genitive
> case. The
> > normal latinized form of these names was
> (ecclesia/parochia)
> > Sancti Dubritii etc. Saint Dubricius (Welsh Dyfrig),
> from
> > whom Saint Devereux is named, is once referred to as
> dominus
> > Dubritius in the Book of Llandaf, but I haven't come
> > across the usage elsewhere in place-names, and
> wondered
> > whether it was just a quirk of the clerk or clerks who
> wrote
> > the documents. There is also mention of a 'David
> Waythen
> > of Domini Petri in Bristolia', presumably St Peter's
> > parish in Bristol (PNGl iii, 85).
> >
> > Has anyone else come across this, or has anyone any
> > thoughts of the possible significance (e.g. a Welsh
> usage)
> > -- or is it just elegant variation? I could go through
> all
> > the EPNS volumes, but am taking the lazy way out pro
> tem!
> >
> > John Freeman
> >
> >
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