medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
[My apologies for re-sending this --i hit the "Send" rather than the "Save
Draft" button and it was unfinished.]
From: Rosemary Hayes-Milligan and Andrew Milligan
> Just a couple of points - this BBC prog did not mention the Mandylion
perhaps we can agree that the Beeb is really not a "good" source, for
anything?
better than FAUX NEWS, perhaps, but still not good enough for our purposes.
>although I remember an earlier one doing so - but the images of the
Mandylion I think I remember seemed to show only the head and were so
identified with Veronicas
that's my understanding (not being a Byzantinist, i can confidently put
forward a Definitive Opinion).
the several representations of it seem to suggest that it was encased in some
kind of rather shallow box with an "open" top, the cloth being held in place
by a latticework of (presumably) gold wires.
the "theory" is that, at some point in its history (perhaps before it left
7th c. Edessa for Constantinople), it was folded up and, in one of those
curious transformations which happened in middlevil times, all memory of it as
being a *larger* cloth, with a double life-size representation of a man's
body, was lost.
i believe that there are also Byz. literary sources which describe it as just
being a head/face.
back in the '80s, when i was doing a bit of work on the Turin Artifact, i
came
across (quite by "accident") a ms. painting reproduced in a Dumbarton Oaks
Papers article which depicted the Mandylion (or at least i *thought* it was
the Mandylion) being held, outside of its box, the Holy Face clearly visible,
but the artifact itself being a *much* longer piece of cloth.
but, i've been through the DOP issues from the '70s (when my leaky memory says
that it appeared) with No Joy.
[btw, on this whole group of _acheiropoieta_ images, see E. von Dobschütz,
Christusbildel: Untersuchungen zur christlichen Legende, TU 118 (Leipzig,
1899); and on the Mandylion, Kurt Weitzmann, "The Mandylion and Constantine
Porphyrogennetos," CahArch, 11 (1960), 163-84, (repr. idem, Studies in
Classicd and ByzanCirw Manuscript Illumination, ed. H. Kessler
[Chicago-London, 1971], 240ff.; more recently, H. Kessler, ed., The Holy Face
and the Paradox of Representation, Villa Spelman Colloquia 6 (Bologna,
1998).]
> - but I may be miss-remembering.
easy enough to do, Dog Nose.
>this prog reckoned that the Byzantine image went from head to navel and they
worked out a contraption which would match present folds in shroud with that
kind of image, which they suggested then translated into 'man of sorrows'
images.
sounds like near-worthless journalistic rehashing of what may (or may not)
have originally been a decent enough reconstruction.
> Re how the image if fake was made, a previous BBC prog claimed that it was
made by an early form of photography/camera obscura method of projecting an
image by light, used apparently in early renaissance to help with perspective
one of many Shroudie/Cult O'Science hypotheses, none of which are convincing,
to my eye/brain.
"Early Renaissance" --say, that would be about Leonardo's time, wouldn't it?
explaining the Turin Artifact's appearance in Champagne in the 1350s is only a
Minor Problem with that Chronology, obviously.
>- but, again, my memory fails me as to exact method.
"exact", "vague", happens to me all the damned time.
>One of most irritating facets of BBC is that it keeps thinking it has
invented the wheel and does not even use its own archives to cover all the
arguments. Hence old ground is gone over as if new and the odd 'new' item is
not tested against the old.
yes, that's "one" of the most irritating facets of the BeeB.
it's just Journalism, after all.
useful for starting interesting threads on scholarly discussion groups, but
not for much else.
>Now I'm showing my age.
or Youth.
whatever.
c
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Christopher Crockett" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >
> > well, if the Turin Artifact is, indeed, the Mandylion from Edessa, we
might
> > presume that there was a more or less universal consensus back in ces
temps
> > la, but that has certainly not been the case in its incarnation since the
> > 14th
> > c.
> >
> > far as i know, the Artifact in Question enjoyed a somewhat quiet,
> relatively
> > localized (in Turin/Savoy) veneration until a Monstrance was held in
1898,
> > when it was first photographed in detail --the newly "enhanced" image
> > visible
> > in the photographic negative was something of a BombShell, attracting the
> > attention of l'abbé Ulysse Chevalier (yes, *that* U.C., of
> > Topo-Bio-Bibliograhique fame), who examined the Artifact's history
> >
> > Le Saint Suaire de Turin: histoire d'une relique / Chanoine Ulysse
> Chevalier
> > Paris : L'Art et l'Autel, [ca 1900]
> > 15 p. ; in-8
> >
> > http://gallica.bnf.fr/document?O=N091140
> >
> > Le linceul du Christ [Texte imprimé] / [par l'abbé Ulysse Chevalier]
> > Publication : Paris : Séminaire Saint-Vincent-de-Paul, [ca 1902]
> > Description matérielle : 8 p. ; in-8
> >
> > Note(s) : Extrait des "Petites Annales de Saint-Vincent-de-Paul", 15
> > septembre 1902
> >
> > http://gallica.bnf.fr/document?O=N091143
> >
> >
> > and, eventually, went to the archives in Troyes and the Vatican and found
> > various documents concerning the 1389 "proces," which he published:
> >
> > Autour des origines du suaire de Lirey [Texte imprimé] : avec documents
> > inédits / par le chanoine Ulysse Chevalier
> > Paris : A. Picard et Fils, 1903
> > 53 p. ; in-8
> > Collection: Bibliothèque liturgique ; Tome 5, livraison 4
> >
> > http://gallica.bnf.fr/document?O=N091144
> >
> >
> > in other words, l'abbé Chevalier was instrumental in propagating the
> notion
> > that the Turin Artifact is a 14th c. French painting.
> >
> > i'm guessing that his work was tied up, somehow, with all that
> > Ultramontain/Gallican contraversy of the time in France, but haven't
> > bothered
> > to sort the details out (at some point one just has to Cut One's Losses
and
> > Quit).
> >
> > >or any other relic, for that matter?
> >
> > i know not from other relics.
> >
> > thankfully.
> >
> > one's enough.
> >
> > c
> >
> > **********************************************************************
> > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> > to: [log in to unmask]
> > To send a message to the list, address it to:
> > [log in to unmask]
> > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> > to: [log in to unmask]
> > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> > [log in to unmask]
> > For further information, visit our web site:
> > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
> >
> > **********************************************************************
> > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> > to: [log in to unmask]
> > To send a message to the list, address it to:
> > [log in to unmask]
> > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> > to: [log in to unmask]
> > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> > [log in to unmask]
> > For further information, visit our web site:
> > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
> >
> **********************************************************************
> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> to: [log in to unmask]
> To send a message to the list, address it to:
> [log in to unmask]
> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> to: [log in to unmask]
> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> [log in to unmask]
> For further information, visit our web site:
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>
**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
To send a message to the list, address it to:
[log in to unmask]
To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
to: [log in to unmask]
In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
[log in to unmask]
For further information, visit our web site:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
|